Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?

[350 Mag]

Still waiting for you to post Taylor's data?

Would it be that Taylor used anemic factory fodder for his 10mm pistol...? oops lets not go there...it might put some holes in your theories???

At least I have backed up MY theories with "some" scientific data....you merely post "because Taylor said so" B.S and expect the rest of us to swallow it as..... Gospel according to Rick as told to him by Taylor?

I do not know what Mike McNett's personal field experience is with the 10mm or any handgun hunting.

But I do know this...

He has a:

1) ammo manufacturing company

2) his own pressure testing equipment (just like the BIG BOYS)

3) more knowledge about loading/reloading handgun cartridges that YOU or I will ever possess.

4) and he also thinks the 10mm is KING!!!

To be honest if you look at the numbers he is right?

 

[magicchip]

Oh look...

It's a pissing contest

 

[350 Mag]

Rick,

I found a Taylor Knockout Calculator on internet.

I punched in McNetts 10mm loads and 45 ACP loads.



The 10mm load was his 230gr Cast lead @ 1120 fps(Glock 20 FACTORY barrel)

The heaviest and deepest penetrating 10mm in existence! This hardcast Wide Flat Nose Gas - Checked bullet will not deform on impact, and will create a large deep wound channel. Excellent for hunting or woods protection!


http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158





The 45 ACP load was his 230gr FMJ @ 1010 fps(pretty HOT load for 45ACP out of a 5" 1911)fastest 45 ACP on the market

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=95


Ran it throught the calculator...and 10mm came out dead even with the 45 ACP for the KO value BUT the momemtum of the 10mm was GREATER and so was K.E......so your claim that Taylor's formula makes the 45 ACP superior is now PROVED to be WRONG........because Taylor's KO Value was the cornerstone of your theory I guess this does finally PROVE that the 10mm is SUPERIOR to the 45 ACP(non-wildcat) care to explain?

Energy, Momentum and Taylor KO calculator


http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp


This is the actual numbers:

10mm 230gr

velocity..............1120 fps
energy.................620 ft.lbs
momemtum.............36
Taylor K.O value......14

45 ACP 230gr

velocity..............1010 fps
energy.................520 ft.lbs
momemtum.............33
Taylor K.O value......14

I guess Taylor should have brought some DOUBLETAP to Africa he may have seen the error in his ways???

 

[Calum]

10mm is KING...(FBI and Jeff COOPER agree)

The Thompson sub machine gun was chambered in .45 so you have been...

 

[G37]

I've never shot a bear, but read many interesting stories... from what I've read over the years

.45acp is great and perfect for defense against human predators.

If worried about larger animals you'd definitely go with a potent 10mm first, then .357magnum second if you had to choose between all 3 calibers. Ideally you'd get something larger.

Yes, 10mm and .357magnum are very similar with the edge going to the 10mm (depending on load). The .45ACP would not be a good choice (of the 3 listed) for protection against wildlife.

 

[350 Mag]

The Thompson sub machine gun was chambered in .45 so you have been...

Thats why they needed 100 rounds of 45 ACP to get the job DONE...weak weak weak.

If it had been loaded in 10mm they would have only needed 10 rounds. 1 for each of the bad guys...not 10 rounds of 45 ACP into each bad guy to wound him.

Ever watch The Untouchables.......Nitty emptied entire 50 round mag of 45 ACP in Sean Connery's character...and didn't kill him until much much later...

 

[Rick]

Just for the record...Rick.

1) How many bears have you shot?

With a rifle? Many. How many? I don't cut notches on my firearms in the 40 odd years I have been hunting bears and other big game. Nor the ones I had to destroy as nuisance bears or after being hit by vehicles.

2) How many with a handgun?

Two. With an issue .38 Spl. using boring issue ammuntion. They both died pretty much immediately. Which makes two more than you have shot with a handgun.

3) How many with a .45 ACP?

None. Just the two with the measly .38 Spl which has far less thump. Which makes two more than you have shot with a handgun.

4) How many with a 10mm?

None. Just the two with the measly .38 Spl which has far less thump. Which makes two more than you have shot with a handgun.

5) How many with 40 S&W?

None. Just the two with the measly .38 Spl which has far less thump. Which makes two more than you have shot with a handgun.

If you answer "none" to number 2,3,4,or 5 please explain how "your opinion" is more valid than mine or anyone elses?

Are we playing the "rules" game again? And are the instructions for answering applicable if I answer "none" to ANY of those questions, or do they only apply if I answer "none" to ALL of those questions?

Oh well... what's valid as an opinion is entirely up to the reader, not for you and me. But here's how I see it:

I have been a handgun shooter and have used them as part of my job in several professions for about 30 years now. According to yourself, you've been using handguns for a whole year.

So, whether you agree with my opinions or not, the fact remains I've got about 29 years experience more than you do for starters.

And whether you agree with my opinions or not, I've carried and used handguns in my profession - and you don't.

And I currently carry handguns for protection on a CCW in the US and in Canada under an ATC while working in remote areas - and you don't.

In short, what is theory and recreational sport for you is practical experience and part of a career for me. You play - I work. As does rgv, who pointed out personally witnessing how effective the 40 S&W was earlier. As does Geologist, who started this thread. You play, we work with handguns for self defense part of what we do.

In other words, theory versus real life experience. I'm not going to call you a wannabe, and having greater experience doesn't make me the oracle of truth, but I have a hell of a lot more past experience to draw on when forming my opinions than you do. And THAT is a fact.

More importantly, I pay attention to the people who ARE shooting defensively and their results, not those who indulge in theory, compare gelatin penetration tests, and measurebate over ballistics charts. I don't have the experience shooting dangerous game that Pondoro Taylor had - and never will. I'll never shoot as many blackbears with handguns as the CO's in this province do. So instead of measurebating and theorizing, I simply look to the experience of those who are actually doing these things and see if it is working for them or not.

Now, if you get to make all these rules, and after my having compliantly answered your questionnaire, can I make just ONE rule?

If you haven't shot at least one game animal with a handgun, your opinion doesn't count.

Hey, it's not fair, but you've come up with some pretty screwy rules so far, so why not one more. Or do only you get to make rules?

 

[Rick]

Oh look...

It's a pissing contest

Yes, it is on the verge of that isn't it?

And seeing as how it is a nice day, and there's very little new information to add for those reading this thread, it is time for me to move along. Even if I were trying to change his preference, my friend is a fanboy for the 10mm and that is never going to change until somebody builds an 11mm, or a 10mm Super, or whatever.

He will continue shooting his 10mm at the range and measurebating over ballistics charts and data. Geologist, rgv, and myself will head back to our jobs in the back country - carrying handguns for self defense.

And so it goes.

 

[350 Mag]

Thanx for the advice Rick.

I never claimed to be an expert, only claimed that 10mm is superior over the 357 and 45 ACP?

You argued your point well...but still have not offered any DEFINITIVE PROOF that 45 ACP is superior to 10mm you simply claim it is because you have backed yourself into a corner.

Using Taylor's own formula(the cornerstone of your theory)the 10mm outdid the 45 ACP? yet you care not to comment on that?

 

[Calum]

Thats why they needed 100 rounds of 45 ACP to get the job DONE...weak weak weak.

Yah but the first .45 shot is the Kill the other 99 is for pure vengeful fun.

 

[Rick]

One last gasp attempt to see if logic has a chance here...

I've never shot a bear, but read many interesting stories... from what I've read over the years... Yes, 10mm and .357magnum are very similar with the edge going to the 10mm (depending on load). The .45ACP would not be a good choice (of the 3 listed) for protection against wildlife.

So... fella tells you he carries a 10mm loaded with Double Tap's 180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps, which penetrates 15.25" and expands to .96" when carrying under an ATC for wildlife defence. We give him the thumbs up and go "Whoah... smart choice buddy - you're good to go."

His partner standing beside him tells you he carries a .45 ACP loaded with Double Tap's 230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps, which penetrates 15.25" and expands to .95". The fool! He's losing out on .01" of expansion with the same penetration (even though he made a bigger hole right from the point of entry).

We give THAT guy the thumbs down and go "You're crazy carrying that poor choice for defense - you're gonna get eaten". All because it came out of a .45 ACP instead of a 10mm.

Go figger...

BTW, during my tour in Yugo I shot a fair number of wild pigs with the anemic old 9mm Inglis using NATO ball ammunition (and the deer as well, but they aren't dangerous or big). Not by choice, but because it was either that or the 50 caliber, and you don't just start spraying those loads around near villages and farmland.

Nobody told the pigs that 9mm, and ball ammo in particular, was totally inadequate for wildlife. They died... the villagers ate them. Other guys did the same thing, same results. Anyone that thinks a bear is better built to withstand bullets hasn't skinned and butchered a wild pig.

So you can see why (a) I get a trifle amused when people who have never shot wildlife with handguns proclaim how a .45 ACP is inadequate, and (b) why I feel quite comfortable carrying a 40 S&W on my ATC for defense in the bush.

Anyways, I have to go GPS some points up the top end of Perry Creek right now. Lots of bears and I'll only have that puny little 40 S&W with me; if I don't make it back, you guys will know how right you were about inadequate calibers for defense against wildlife...

 

[python357]

This thread has taken up more bandwidth you can imagine..makes very interesting reading and it's amazing how those involved in the debate are passionate about their point of view.

 

[Gatehouse]

Thanx for the advice Rick.

I never claimed to be an expert, only claimed that 10mm is superior over the 357 and 45 ACP?

You argued your point well...but still have not offered any DEFINITIVE PROOF that 45 ACP is superior to 10mm you simply claim it is because you have backed yourself into a corner.

Using Taylor's own formula(the cornerstone of your theory)the 10mm outdid the 45 ACP? yet you care not to comment on that?

You have gone past the area of "fanboy"

You are now a ZEALOT....

Read *** again. He isn't saying the 45ACP is "better" he is saying that the REAL WORLD differences are small enough so that it won't make any difference on a bear!!!

Look at your own numbers- The difference in energy is LESS than the energy in a 22 Long Rifle cartridge....

10mm 230gr

velocity..............1120 fps
energy.................620 ft.lbs
momemtum.............36
Taylor K.O value......14

45 ACP 230gr

velocity..............1010 fps
energy.................520 ft.lbs
momemtum.............33
Taylor K.O value......14

Regardless about how many numbers you crunch, more important than the cartridge is bullet placemnet and bullet performance.

REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE IS KING!!

 

[350 Mag]

One last gasp attempt to see if logic has a chance here...


So... fella tells you he carries a 10mm loaded with Double Tap's 180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps, which penetrates 15.25" and expands to .96" when carrying under an ATC for wildlife defence. We give him the thumbs up and go "Whoah... smart choice buddy - you're good to go."

His partner standing beside him tells you he carries a .45 ACP loaded with Double Tap's 230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps, which penetrates 15.25" and expands to .95". The fool! He's losing out on .01" of expansion with the same penetration (even though he made a bigger hole right from the point of entry).

So you can see why (a) I get a trifle amused when people who have never shot wildlife with handguns proclaim how a .45 ACP is inadequate, and (b) why I feel quite comfortable carrying a 40 S&W on my ATC for defense in the bush.

Now who's doing corkscrew comparisons?

Your picking one of the lowest 10mm loads and comparing with one of the best 45 loads...

Look at the best load for the 10mm which in fact is still a JHP only an XTP which is probably better suited for big game...

Now you see a big difference...



DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

 

[Dave L.]

Ah... bears. Nothing a .378 Weatherby can't fix.

The best advice someone gave me is 'it's more than just numbers.' I suppose we've also got to look at how competent the shooter is as well. If you shot a .600 Nitro Express into your foot, then put the barrel of a .17HM2 revolver into your eye and set it off, which one would cause more harm?

- Dave.

 

[Calum]

All this talk about energy, but no one has mentioned a key factor...WOUND CHANNEL.

10 millimeter = 0.39 inch

0.45 inch = 11.43 millimeter

Unless my metric converter is off it looks like the .45 will make a larger wound simply based on original bullet dia before expansion.

 

[350 Mag]

You have gone past the area of "fanboy"

You are now a ZEALOT....

Read *** again. He isn't saying the 45ACP is "better" he is saying that the REAL WORLD differences are small enough so that it won't make any difference on a bear!!!



Regardless about how many numbers you crunch, more important than the cartridge is bullet placemnet and bullet performance.

REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE IS KING!!

I may have started the fire here....but he threw gasoline all over it.

I think you better read again...

I said the the 10mm is superior to the 45 ACP.

He said..... NO its not. He later said according to Taylor's experience shooting game animals in Africa he developed a formula to rate KO Value of different cartridges.


Rick said....

" By the way, I know this is gonna hurt, but running those loads through John "Pondoro" Taylor's "Knock Out Value" calculations, the .45 ACP scores 14.93 while the 10mm scores 13.37. But what would Taylor know? He only made a career of hunting and dealing with different game, and learning what mattered in stopping dangerous animals and what didn't."

Now if that is not saying the 45 ACP is superior to the 10mm I guess I must be reading between the lines TOO much???


He used Taylor's findings to support "his claims"...

So to beat him at his own game.... using the best loads published on FACTORY loaded ammo for the 10mm Auto vs the 45 ACP I used the FAMED TAYLOR KO VALUES CALCULATOR...and guess what.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

The 10mm Auto scored better?

But he has since not chosen to defend those statements he made...because he realized that I wasn't gonna simply go away like a puppy-dog with my tail between my legs.

Care to run those calculations again Rick and explain the results of the superior 45 ACP not scoring as HIGH or HIGHER than the 10mm(according to Taylor)?

 

[Gatehouse]

So, if both cartridges are loaded to thier maximum potential, how much difference in bear killing power will the 2 cartridges have................. and do you think you could see it?

 

[geologist]

This has been a spirited thread and I hope that everyone involved will "kiss and make up" afterwards.

After reading about the 10mm's capabilities I don't see a HUGE advantage in going to it over the 4" .357 magnum that I already own. I legally carry my .357 magnum in the winter month's when the big furries are supposed to be hibernating. It's lighter, shorter and much easier to carry than a handcannon.

Spring, summer and fall I'll continue to carry my .454 Casull. It outpowers all of the 10mm/.357 magnum/.45 ACP's.

I didn't realize how powerfull the old .45 ACP could be loaded without going to something like a 45-08.

 

[350 Mag]

10mm Auto preffered...

350 Mag

Strangeday

Globetrotter

Camp Cook

Jeff/1911

7x57FIXER

Billy the Kid

G37






45 ACP preferred .

Sambr

Rick

80% vs. 20%






I guess I know nothing along with all those other poor misguided souls that chose the lowly 10mm??? I guess they didn't read Taylor's works or books as they too would be not misguided enough to ever choose the lowly 10mm when the 45 ACP offers MUCH better stopping power(sorry Knock Out Power) when it comes to DANGEROUS GAME....

I am lernin...someday I will be as good/smart as you....