Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?

[geologist]

How does the power level of a GLOCK 10mm pistol compare to my 4" .357 magnum revolver?

How about bullet selection for 10mm, anything available for black bear sized animals? (Relax, I have an ATC ).

I'm lookiing for a reason to buy a new handgun

 

[IM_Lugger]

as far as energy goes full power 10mm is about the same as full power .357mag, but I personally wouldn't want to shoot a nuclear 10mm from a gun with an unsupported chamber...

Buffalo Bore and Double tap both make hot loads in that calibre, but you're will probably have to reload since other factory ammo is mild in comparison

 

[Canuck223]

For your application, I would tend to try loading the 180 grain semi jacketed hollowpoints in a .357, before buying a 10mm.

That being said, I would not feel under gunned loading maximum safe load 200gr hollowpoints out of a G20, if you need to justify buying a new toy.

 

[rgv]

I've seen several bears shot at point blank range by a 40 S&W and whatever ammo CO's are issued (180 silvertips ??), and also with 200 FP's from a G20 by a wildlife contractor.

Either killed the bears stone dead, and overpenetration with the 10mm was an issue.

I think a G20 (especially if the rivet in a 15 rd mag fell out) would be an excellent carry pistol, and at least the equal of a 6 shot DA 44 mag. The lesser bullet weight would be made up with more firepower and better controllability.

Another pistol I think is worth considering when recoil is an issue is a 357 SIG in a Glock. Lots of penetration and easy to hit with

 

[G37]

Ok, I am going to be The Dork who posts a FBI data comparison now, not quite bear vs bullet stuff but enjoyable nevertheless:

FBI test events were:

1. Bare Gelatin at 10 feet
2. Heavy Clothing at 10 ft.
3. Automotive sheet metal at 10 ft. (2 pieces of 20ga. hot rolled steel spaced 3" apart)
4. Wall board at 10' (2 pieces of standard 1/2" wall board 3 1/2" apart)
5. Plywood at 10 feet. One piece 3/4" AA fir plywood
6. Automotive glass at 10 ft. (Standard windshield glass mounted at 45 deg angle)
7. Light clothing at 20 yds.
8. Automotive glass at 20 yards (shots fired from front otherwise same as #6 above)

FBI AMMUNITION TEST PERFORMANCE DATA

CAL MAKER BULLET Wt. GUN BBL VEL. FPE SUCCESS

.45 Fed HS 230 4506 5" 802 328fp 95%
.45 Rem JHP 185 645 5" 903 334fp 95%
.45 Fed HS 230 1911 5" 828 358fp 82%
.45 Fed JHP 185 4506 5" 874 313fp 90%
.45 Fed JHP 185 645 5" 953 373fp 57%
.45 Win S-Tip 185 4506 5" 951 371fp 50%

10mm Norma JHP 170 Delta 5" 1358 696fp 100%
10mm Fed JHP 180 Delta 5" 931 346fp 95%
10mm Win JHP 180 Delta 5" 955 364fp 92%
10mm IMP-3D JHP 180 Delta 5" 991 392fp 92%
10mm Buffalo Prfrg 191 Delta 5" 916 355fp 30%

.357 Fed HS 158 M13 3" 1183 490fp 100%
.357 Win JSP 158 M13 3" 1096 421fp 97%
.357 Win S-Tip 145 M13 3" 1166 437fp 82%

38sp Fed HS 147 M13 3" 874 249fp 92%
38sp Rem LHP 158 M13 3" 871 266fp 67%
38sp Fed LHP 158 M13 3" 834 244fp 70%
38sp Fed HS 129 M13 3" 841 202fp 60%
38sp Win LHP 158 M13 3" 808 229fp 65%
38sp Win S-Tip 125 M13 3" 843 197fp 17%

9mm Fed HS 147 226 4.25" 914 272fp 82%
9mm Fed HS 124 226 4.25" 1062 310fp 82%
9mm Win JHP 147 226 4.25" 902 265fp 62%
9mm Win S-Tip 115 226 4.25" 1091 303fp 35%


That looks like reason enough for me... BUY the 10mm (I did)

 

[Strangeday]

10mm Rock.....hands down...dicussion over....close the thread

 

[757Fixer]

All those 10mm loads excluding the Norma one are a total joke! 930 to 990 fps with 180 gr. bullets is a terrible neutering of the cartridge. My 10mm handloads with 180's gets 1270 to 1300 fps no problem. Federal and Winchester might as well not bother loading those rounds if all they are going to do is duplicate .40 S&W.

 

[Camp Cook]

I have loaded 135gr Nosler HP's to 1850fps with IMR800X powder using Mike McNett's of Double Tap Ammo fame reload data in a 6 inch Barsto barrel.

This same load does 1750fps in my 5" KKM barreled G20...

I get 1280fps for 200gr XTP's and I just purchased 400 Beartooth 200gr FNGC's hard cast bullets that I should be able to load safely to 1320fps.

I've never looked up the velocities for a 357 mag with 135gr or the heavier 180gr bullets so don't know what their velocities are. I do not believe that it gets higher velocities and it is a smaller caliber bullet as well.

I do know that a bear hunting guide in Wash State who was in on over 300 black bear kills taken with handguns and most of them were with police officers using their duty side arms. Compiled a list of handgun cartridges that he would use to hunt and defend his life from black bear attacks.

The bare minimum cal/cartridges that he would use are 10mm and 41 mag with 180gr plus bullet weights he groups these two together.

His personal favorite is the 44 mag with 240gr HP's and the best are are the .452" and up calibers with 300gr plus bullets.

For Black bears he recommends hp's because when the bullet hits the animal the bear usually spins and bites the area that the bullet hit giving time to shoot the bear again, hard cast wide meplated bullets zip thru and the bear runs off before you get a chance for a second shot.

Remember this is for hunting bears not stopping a charge.

In other words I do not own a handgun that shoots a bullet that is smaller than .400" in diameter and I prefer to carry .452" instead.

 

[350 Mag]

With my "hot" handloads, in my Witness(4.5 inch barrel) I was getting 1230 fps with a 200 gr XTP which equates to 670 ft/lbs.

DoubleTap factory ammo is getting around 1250 fps with a Factory Glock 20 which is about 691 ft/lbs.

For those of you who are interested the 357 mag Doubletap loads only slightly exceed these energy numbers making the 10mm just as good as if not better than the 357. Also noting that 10mm is doing it with a 200 gr versus a 158 or 125 gr bullet out of the 357. Plus in U.S.A you can get 15+1 capacity in Glock 20 or Witness which makes for a heck of alot of firepower in a semi-auto pistol.

I WISH we were allowed to go deer/bear hunting with it...I am sure it would be more than adequate.

Here is McNett's penetration data...

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"


DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

Conclusion.

.357 could be loadeD probably a bit hotter but NOT much.

I would try both and the one that is more accurate for me would be my choice.


Like others have said.

If you do get a Glock 20 get yourself a KKM or Barsto barrel and you will be much safer when going HOT.

http://glocktalk.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=67

http://10mmtalk.com/

 

[Globetrotter]

All those 10mm loads excluding the Norma one are a total joke! 930 to 990 fps with 180 gr. bullets is a terrible neutering of the cartridge. My 10mm handloads with 180's gets 1270 to 1300 fps no problem. Federal and Winchester might as well not bother loading those rounds if all they are going to do is duplicate .40 S&W.

I fully agree. I also load to the above specs, and I am very happy with it.
I carry (ATC) for the last 8 years the Colt Delta Elite (stainless) and it
"performed "excellent when really needed.
I carried the S&W .44 Mag before, and liked it too, but the comfort of
something flat on your hip instead of bulky cylinder is more important
for me now.
It hurts too much when you climb over things all the time and fall
unexpectedly, which happens quite often especially after rain.

 

[sambr]

I have a 45acp, a 10mm Delta & a 357 mag I like to shoot all of them equally as much. Each one has it's purpose, If I was to carry it would be my 45acp commander.

 

[350 Mag]

I have a 45acp, a 10mm Delta & a 357 mag I like to shoot all of them equally as much. Each one has it's purpose, If I was to carry it would be my 45acp commander.

He was asking about .357 or 10mm....NOT .45 ACP??

Normal .45 ACP (not .45 Super, .451 Detonics, 45-08 Armco, or 460 Rowland) is NOT an adequate round to dispatch a Black Bear. It may or may not do the job but lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun.

.45 ACP belongs in a museum, old cartridge, past its prime and quite easily a joke when compared to 10mm Auto which can run circles around the .45 ACP in any department...Faster, Flatter shooting, more accurate, more energy, more capacity, better penetration etc etc etc.

 

[python357]

He was asking about .357 or 10mm...NOT .45 ACP
Normal .45 ACP (not .45 Super, .451 Detonics, 45-08 Armco, or 460 Rowland) is NOT an adequate round to dispatch a Black Bear. It may or may not do the job but lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun.

.45 ACP belongs in a museum,

---------------------

I feel vivid discussions coming with such a statement...
I don't own a "museum" cartridge pistol (yet) so, no comment !!

 

[Jeff/1911]

All those 10mm loads excluding the Norma one are a total joke! 930 to 990 fps with 180 gr. bullets is a terrible neutering of the cartridge. My 10mm handloads with 180's gets 1270 to 1300 fps no problem. Federal and Winchester might as well not bother loading those rounds if all they are going to do is duplicate .40 S&W.

Amen brother...those are very anemic number for the mighty ten!

 

[python357]

Amen brother...those are very anemic number for the mighty ten!

I certainly agree to the "nutering" of the cartridge, however, for a fun day of shooting, do you REALLY want to fire 150 rounds at those velocities?

Full load .357 magnum rounds are not far off from your numbers and I can't shoot more than 50 rounds of those without "giving-up" !

That's probably why the factory loads are watered-down.

 

[Jeff/1911]

I LOVE shooting the full power 10mm ammunition, but you're right...I normally don't fire 150 rounds in a day from the same gun.

 

[Gatehouse]

He was asking about .357 or 10mm....NOT .45 ACP??

Normal .45 ACP (not .45 Super, .451 Detonics, 45-08 Armco, or 460 Rowland) is NOT an adequate round to dispatch a Black Bear. It may or may not do the job but lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun.

.45 ACP belongs in a museum, old cartridge, past its prime and quite easily a joke when compared to 10mm Auto which can run circles around the .45 ACP in any department...Faster, Flatter shooting, more accurate, more energy, more capacity, better penetration etc etc etc.

Have you ever shot a bear? Wiht anything?

 

[350 Mag]

Have you ever shot a bear? Wiht anything?

YES several, but to be honest never with a handgun.

Anyways,

I marvel at the .45 ACP groupies that come a running whenever someone starts talking down about their precious 45.

The starter of this thread didn't want ANY info on 45 ACP for Bear but strangely someone has to offer it up as as a Bear defense round.....prefered over a 10mm oh me oh me oh my


Everytime I picture someone carrying 45 auto in bush for self-defense I think of the words to this song....


Farewell and Adiu to you fair Spanish ladies,

Farewell and Adiu you ladies of Spain,

for we've recieved orders to sail back to Boston,

and so never more shall we see you again.

 

[albertacoyotecaller]

Good thread going here

until the "45 AP" stuff started.

Anyways, currently I am carrying my Sig 226 in 40S&W for my ATC permit. I do realize that this is not the best stopping power gun for the job but it is the biggest I have currently and eventually will go to a 10mm or a 44 mag Redhawk.

I really like the semi auto because of ease of carry but I do agree that the 44 mag is probably the best out there for stopping a charge.

Question is, what is the best ammo to use in my 40S&W until I get something else and where can I get it since all they seem to have around here is cheap solids in 180gr.

Thanks

 

[350 Mag]

This Was A Good Thread Until It Got Hi-jacked...oops!

This was a good thread .....until the "45 AP" stuff started.

I was merely pointing out that the ORIGINAL POSTER of this thread was asking opinions on which is more powerful the 10mm or .357....?

This was the original post in this thread....?


Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How does the power level of a GLOCK 10mm pistol compare to my 4" .357 magnum revolver?

How about bullet selection for 10mm, anything available for black bear sized animals? (Relax, I have an ATC ).

I'm lookiing for a reason to buy a new handgun




He was NOT asking about a .40 S&W and what load he should use or so and so has .45 ACP and prefers to carry that over a 10mm or the .357?