Is Black Creek Labs a tainted brand on the used market

Comparing a bolt gun to a $1500.00ish gas gun is like comparing apples to oranges imho . I've played the game a long time and have yet to see a mid priced gas gun that keep up with a bolt gun. Some will, but you had better get off your wallet.
 
Anomaly said:
maybe it's a bit nit picky, but a $700 Howa mini action in 223 with a super cheesy plastic stock is guaranteed 3 shot sub MOA by the manufacturer. The Savage Axis's I've seen are generally MOA or better. For a >$1000 rifle in a chassis I would sort of expect you can match an Axis or Howa Mini?
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Well, the 12½ barrel is sure handy for the ATV box.

I'd bet factory accuracy is based on the best if the best ammo, and held tight in a vise, not free hand with $20 ammo with rain dripping off your hat or squinting at the sun
 
beltfed said:
If you only count 3 shots, the Bison is easily its equal with decent ammo.

The problem is that 3 rounds doesn't tell the whole story as it really only shows MPI
5 rounds is better, but 10 round groups is the gold standard, imho.

Are the guys shooting their Howas and Ruger Americans shooting 3 round groups and claiming "It's sub-moa all day if I do my part"?
I don't know for sure, but that sh!t is white noise to me - I've seen enough of those guys show up on the firing line in competitions only to sh!t the proverbial bed when it matters.

Anyone that thinks 3 round groups tell a story worth telling are just fooling themselves into thinking how good they and their rifle are.
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Well said
 
beltfed said:
...Anyone that thinks 3 round groups tell a story worth telling are just fooling themselves into thinking how good they and their rifle are.
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Different applications. For a hunting rifle, 3-rd groups tell the story well enough.

BUT you can't cherry pick the 3-rd group, AND you need to show repeatable 3-rd groups: Five 3-rd groups in a row will do it.

Of course, this is the black rifle thread, not the hunting rifle thread...
 
alpining said:
Different applications. For a hunting rifle, 3-rd groups tell the story well enough.

BUT you can't cherry pick the 3-rd group, AND you need to show repeatable 3-rd groups: Five 3-rd groups in a row will do it.

Of course, this is the black rifle thread, not the hunting rifle thread...
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Hunting rifles are no different insofar as group size and statistics are concerned.
The fact is that guys don't want to beat the sh!t out of themselves shooting their 5 lb. 300 win. mag. to see how poorly their guns do with their uber expensive ammo.
When you factor in all that powder heating up typical pencil barrels, they will probably see just how poorly some of them shoot over a longer string of fire...

When, in all honesty the biggest issue for hunters will be the cold bore shot, whether that is repeatable, and how far that cold bore round is outside of its MPA / MPI with further firing.
 
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