Is handgun +P/ +P+ ammo bull####?

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mini15

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I noticed that on manufactures websites, and this also applies to a load of other manufactures, that +P ammo of the same grain is usually 100 ft/s or lower in higher FPS ratting. That's it. Is this even noticeable? A lot of people say it isn't, some say it's bs. Same goes for +P+, a lot of data around also seems to show that +P+ doesn't even really exist, it's marketing.


On that note 9mm NATO is apparently a true form of +P, it's that "SMG Ammo" everybody warms you about not to fire through your handgun. Anybody have any experience with this stuff?
 
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The SAAMI standard for 38 Special is 17,000 pounds pressure.
+P is rated at 18,500 pounds pressure.
I would suggest that is a pretty insignificant amount of difference. I don't see how you could feel which ammo was in your gun.
 
CZ75 SP01 are rated for +p+ military ammo they come with a extra heavier main spring to aid with the harder primers of military ammo now with that being said not all hand guns are rated for smg (+p+) ammo but some are if you ever have any doubts about your firearm contact the manufacturer and ask what its rated for
 
I am no expert here but I do not think a load that is just about 10% higher then the cartridge was org. designed for should be called insignificant. Just my two cents worth.

Graydog
 
Personally I wouldn't bother going out of my way to get +P ammo - basically if you buy CIP instead of SAAMI ammo, you're getting +P. As far as true NATO spec ammo goes, I ran 400 rounds of 1967 CF 9mm ammo through my M&P9, it's quite sharp and loud, but works just fine.
 
correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read on the forums here and been told by other enthusiasts, including a gunnut friend in Florida who's always breaking the 'rules'...that most firearms are rated about 30% lower than what their breaking point is, pressure wise. hence the reason why people buy/make/use 'hot' loads in the guns.

that said, in another thread on another forum, it was pointed out that fps and accuracy are two different things and that just because you have a faster bullet doesn't mean your accuracy gets any better. so there may be diminishing returns on using the hot ammo, unless you play carefully with handloads to maximize your accuracy.
 
IIRC: +P is a SAAMI spec. +P+ is "higher than SAAMI +P", but not really a spec per se.

The fps that you see listed on the box is not worth much as useful data. +P relates to chamber pressure, which does not really translate directly to fps. Guns and their chambers don't care how fast the projectile is moving at the muzzle; They care about peak chamber pressure.

There is a significant difference: Some pistols are rated for a steady diet of +P ammunition, and some are not. Sure, most models will handle occasional smaller quantities of +P, but a steady diet will loosen them up faster than non +P ammunition, and thus shorten their lifespan. Specifically, I'm thinking of my S&W Model 10, and there other examples to be sure.

9mm SMG ammunition is in a different class entirely, I think.
 
I know back in the old Model 10 RCMP days, the +P+ stuff was only used for "on duty" and the occasional qualification, with the majority of practice using the 158gr LRN standard pressure. The worst part of those damn +P+ 158gr hollow points was how fast they would lead up the gun. Soft lead, + high velocity = one bloody mess! Not to mention the extra bark and recoil. Those K frames did come in 357, but from what I heard out of the US, the police down there did the same thing, practice low, carry hot. That's one of the reasons S&W came up with their L frame, was to handle a steady diet of hot stuff.

On the pistol side, I recall some manufactures mentioning that the use of +P or +P+ ammo in alloy framed guns was not recommended, trying to remember if that was the older Sig's? Although any gun of recent manufacture should be able to digest the ammo of the day, it never hurts to read the manual. (guys do read manuals, sometimes...) That older IVI 9mm ammo is quite warm, I have seen what's left of a Star 9mm pistol after too much of the stuff. The slide was ready to split in 2, scarey sight.
 
I have fired +P through my G22, and the only noticable difference was the sharper report. I didn't notice a difference in recoil or accuracy. I know the idea of higher power makes some people think better "stopping power" but I doubt it would make much difference in terms of terminal performance. A well designed, slower moving hollowpoint that stops in the target will transfer much more kinetic energy than a +P FMJ that just punches through and through.
 
Cavs42 said:
...I know the idea of higher power makes some people think better "stopping power" but I doubt it would make much difference in terms of terminal performance. A well designed, slower moving hollowpoint that stops in the target will transfer much more kinetic energy than a +P FMJ that just punches through and through.
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Only as long as that hollowpoint is within its velocity sweet spot. Wounding due to expanding bullets is highly dependent on velocity: Too slow, and they generally fail to expand and potentially overpenetrate. Too fast, and they generally disintegrate and underpenetrate. For FMJ, pushing velocity generally results in a notable improvement in barrier (and clothing) penetration and a smaller improvement in flatness of trajectory.
 
alpining said:
Only as long as that hollowpoint is within its velocity sweet spot. Wounding due to expanding bullets is highly dependent on velocity: Too slow, and they generally fail to expand and potentially overpenetrate. Too fast, and they generally disintegrate and underpenetrate. For FMJ, pushing velocity generally results in a notable improvement in barrier (and clothing) penetration and a smaller improvement in flatness of trajectory.
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Hence I specified "well designed."

There can be no doubt that FMJ penetrates barriers and clothing better. I'm just sayin I'd take standard load HP over a +P FMJ in a defensive situation.
 
Is the Barnaul 9mm some of that sub-gun stuff? I shot a box last week and it seemed a lot snappier than AE, Blazer or Winchester? There was no information on the box other than weight and calibre. Also had lots of failure to feed, ie stove piping the next round and failure to fires even tho there was a strike on the primer. This was in my NP34 and I have never had any issues with it and I have a couple thousand thru it.
 
For 9mm standard pressure is 35K psi. +P rating is up to 38.5K psi. There is no +P+ max rating pressure. Velocity will be different in depending on the gun. For actual numbers do a Google search.
 
Cavs42 said:
Hence I specified "well designed."
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Ah. In that case, I agree with you. You wrote "A well designed, slower moving hollowpoint..." and that means "bullet" to me, not "loaded ammunition".

I didn't say that FMJ is superior to HP, though sometimes it is, as you note. I said that increasing the muzzle velocity of FMJ is generally always beneficial in terms of bullet performance. That's in contrast to HPs, where there is definitely such a thing as "too fast".

FWIW, I wouldn't trust any ammunition manufacturer to necessarily correctly match HP bullet expansion characteristics with velocity. There are plenty of examples of poorly-performing factory HP ammunition out there. An FMJ load is relatively hard to screw up. Just the same, if I have the option, I would generally choose a well-designed +P HP load if bullet wounding is a factor.
 
alpining said:
9mm SMG ammunition is in a different class entirely, I think.
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So what is 9mm SMG ammo? Is there some different spec for this? Where do you get it?

From what I can gather up on the net, 9mm SMG seems to be some folklore form of ammo that everyone has heard of, says you shouldn't shoot it but nobody ever said yea I have some and it's X, Y & Z.



Galt said:
and failure to fires even tho there was a strike on the primer. This was in my NP34 and I have never had any issues with it and I have a couple thousand thru it.
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Bought case of 100 Barnaul 9mm a few months ago, I was getting at least two hard primers per 50 round box. I thought it was my striker spring getting worn out but two thousand rounds of AE/Wolf latter without a hard primer makes me thing Barnaul was the problem.
 
There's no such thing as "SMG ammo", NATO spec or otherwise. All 9mm firearms in the CF use the same NATO spec ammo.
In any case, the +P is about pressure, not velocity. SAAMI 9mm Luger pressure spec is a max avg pressure of 350 (psi/100). +P is 385. There is no SAAMI +P+, but that doesn't mean there isn't such a thing. The whole thing is more about the handgun than anything else.
http://www.saami.org/index.cfm
Soft lead at high velocity equals a leaded barrel. And yes that is a bloody mess.
 
mini15 said:
On that note 9mm NATO is apparently a true form of +P, it's that "SMG Ammo" everybody warms you about not to fire through your handgun. Anybody have any experience with this stuff?
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I fired probably 5000 rounds of 9mm NATO through both a CZ75 and Glock 17 in the late 1980s and early 1990s with no issues. I think in any modern handgun you wouldn;t have anything to worry about, although continued use will accelerate wear.
 
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