is Norma brass so good

bigedp51 said:
At the Accurate Shooter reloading forum http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?board=2.0 a forum member by the name CatShooter did a Rockwell hardness test of some .223/5.56 cases. CatShooter did the hardness test to put an end to a "discussion" I was having about which cartridge cases were made of the hardest brass. (I won the "discussion) Bottom line U.S. Military Lake City 5.56 cases were the hardest followed not to far behind by Lapua.

So to answer you question Lapua and Norma make some of the highest quality brass on the planet and American companies do not come close to this quality.

The problem you will run into is Norma brass is softer than Lapua and you can not load as warm as Lapua before the base of the case starts to expand and even flow. As a side note Nosler custom brass is made by Norma, it is weight sorted, uniformed, full length resized and trimmed to length before you open the box.

Before you buy once fired brass remember this, it is mixed brass from many different lots, it was fired in many different chambers and it will NOT be uniform. Meaning if you looking for accuracy then buy new brass from the same lot for consistency and uniformity.

At Accurate Shooter the competitive shooters buy Lapua brass and they do not need to do any prep work to the cases before they are fired, and the cases last longer than any other brand because the case is harder and extremely uniform.

NOTE: Many competitive shooters where recovering their brass is difficult, will use Winchester brass because it is harder than the other American cases and has better than average uniformity. Remington cases come in last place as being the softest and the least uniform in case wall and neck thickness
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Biged speaks from long experience and a deep pit of knowledge. I agree with all in his post except the bolded words:

My personal experience has led me to conclude that Federal brass is even softer than Remington. This is based on how easily the primer pockets loosen with Federal, compared to Remington.

Even relatively mild loads tend to render Federal brass useless after 5-8 firings, due to loose primer pockets. The uniformity of Remington brass is lousy, but I believe that it is a bit harder than is Federal, as a general rule.

Regards, Dave.
 
For decades I used Norma brass in my Weatherby's and never had a problem. Had many reloads with the 300 wby. at max powder (84.5 grains of IMR-7828, 180 grain). I also use Nosler Custom and Lapua. All three brands are equally great.
 
Eagleye said:
Biged speaks from long experience and a deep pit of knowledge. I agree with all in his post except the bolded words:

My personal experience has led me to conclude that Federal brass is even softer than Remington. This is based on how easily the primer pockets loosen with Federal, compared to Remington.

Even relatively mild loads tend to render Federal brass useless after 5-8 firings, due to loose primer pockets. The uniformity of Remington brass is lousy, but I believe that it is a bit harder than is Federal, as a general rule.

Regards, Dave.
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Dave, it's my experience that Federal is much softer now than it used to be.
I recently loaded for my same rifle, some Federal 243 with the same load of H414 that each of us have used with no indication of over load. This latest batch loosened the primers, to where I threw them away, with just one firing.
Bruce
 
For me, Norma runs second place to Lapua in every catagory.
Lapua is just awesome, unmatched in it's ability to last and last with stout loads.
Consistently even necks, close matched weights, tight pockets that stay that way long after the best domestic cases have been binned.

It's gotten to the point I won't consider a new cal., unless Lap. cases are available/formable for it.
 
Eagleye

My scrap brass bucket is pictured below, and it is 90% full of Federal brass, and the reason I said Remington was the softest is because CatShooter didn't even waste his time checking Federal brass with his rockwell tester.

193natorejects001_zps87560a0a.jpg


Now here is insult added to injury, the brass pictured below is marked LC for Lake City "BUT" it failed military quality control standards and Federal then sells these rejected cases as loaded ammunition and sells these cartridges to the American public.

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And the American company Nosler that wants to sell quality brass buys Norma brass and not American made brass and just preps and repackages the brass.

IMG_2032_zps2f989f03.jpg


Our American companies only care about lining their own pockets and quality comes in second or third place to greed and profits.


And sadly as an American I don't even trust you Canadians anymore, you moved Cheyenne Mountain nuclear bunker with our only Star Gate from Colorado to Vancouver and then you let all the aliens invade the U.S. :bangHead:

M60jpg_zps2df6f5d3.jpg
 
It is regrettable that the brass manufacturers generally seem to have lost interest in making the best brass they can, they have succumbed to market pressure, and now make it good enough. No one has problems with the brass in winchester, federal or remington factory loads, and that is what they make it for now. Or at least it seems that way.. My 2 cents worth...
 
Boomer said:
I doubt if Sunray has ever seen Lapua brass, never mind loaded any. I once bought a case of factory .308 Lapua match ammo, and just for kicks began weighing some just to see how consistent it was. They were essentially exact duplicates of one another, and I was sold. Although I don't have lots, I like what I have in .308 and .243, and the difference in primer pocket tension between Lapua and Federal is night and day.
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Ditto! My experience with excellent quality 308 Lapua brass as well. And regarding Norma brass, I custom convert many differing brands of H&H Magnum cases to 458x2inch American.
Hence I've found two brand names that I avoid in the discarded brass range bucket at our club; Norma and Federal. Frequently they have loose primer pockets, just after a single discharge.
The only other brands I seek out is Remington and Weatherby. Some rich oil patch guy actually discards once fired Weatherby brass!!! $$$$$
 
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Take a look at the green bar below on the far left for the chamber pressure of a commercial .223 cartridge and then look at the blue bar on the far right for military 5.56.

The max rated pressure for both cartridges is 52,000 cup or 55,000 psi and the commercial .223 cartridge is loaded 5,000 psi below the max rated pressure. The ammunition manufactures only need to manufacture their cases to withstand the pressures they load their ammunition to.

barnes-pressure_zps9347fe41.jpg


Military .223/5.56 brass isn't thicker, it is made harder to withstand 55,000 psi in chamber larger in diameter and longer in headspace.

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If you want to load on the warm side then buy the hardest brass you can find which would be Lapua for commercial brass.

Every make of cartridge case will tell you what pressures it likes and all you need is a micrometer or vernier calipers to measure base expansion.

Below is the load I shoot out of my AR15 rifles to make my reloads last and not over stress the brass.

The pressure chart below represents a military Lake City case with the most internal volume and approximately 43,000 psi chamber pressure.

308_zpsf81bb4cc.jpg


The pressure chart below represents a commercial cartridge case with the least internal volume and corresponding higher chamber pressure at 50,000 psi.

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The above load of 25 grains of H335 is more than good enough for practice shooting at 100 yards or less with a AR15 rifle and not over stress the brass. (all cheap bastards know this)

Bottom line, all brass is good as long as you do not push the brass beyond its elastic limits, now think about it, I have 30-30 cases over 25 years old and they only die from split necks.

Below is a exaggerated example of pushing your brass too far and you check this by measuring the base of your cases when firing a work up load to find the limits of your brass.

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Another dead giveaway is if the brass is flowing into the ejector hole in the bolt face.

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H4831 said:
Dave, it's my experience that Federal is much softer now than it used to be.
I recently loaded for my same rifle, some Federal 243 with the same load of H414 that each of us have used with no indication of over load. This latest batch loosened the primers, to where I threw them away, with just one firing.
Bruce
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bigedp51 said:
Eagleye

My scrap brass bucket is pictured below, and it is 90% full of Federal brass, and the reason I said Remington was the softest is because CatShooter didn't even waste his time checking Federal brass with his rockwell tester.

193natorejects001_zps87560a0a.jpg


Now here is insult added to injury, the brass marked LC for Lake City failed military quality control standards and Federal then sells these rejected cases as loaded ammunition and sells these cartridges to the American public.



And the American company Nosler that wants to sell quality brass buys Norma brass and not American made brass and just preps and repackages the brass.


Our American companies only care about lining their own pockets and quality comes in second or third place to greed and profits.
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H4831; Yes, I have observed the same "softening" trend in Federal brass.

BigedP51; I knew there was some reason you did not mention Federal brass! :)
It is crap, and I avoid using it for any rifle I load for.

Lapua is great stuff, and I use it in any competition I shoot in by choice. As I mentioned before, I use the Norma Mag stuff for my 308NMs.

Regards, Dave
 
I haven't been around this forum to much in the past 5 or so years. This is one of the most informative posts I have ever read.

My son and I both shoot 7mm-08...and I have been saving brass to get more serious into reloading. I have got as much Fed 08 brass as BigEd's reject bucket. Oh boy...have I got to do some rethinking about the anticipated lifespan of the brass I have.

Great thread. Thanks

Ron
 
Price is dependant on location. I bought loaded Norma 30-06 ammunition in Darwin, for less than the price of blue box Federal in the same place. I couldn't resist pointing out at the counter that in Canada Norma was the expensive premium product, and blue box is the cheapest thing on the shelf. Something must have got mixed up in translation because they immediately dropped the Norma price some more. Strange world we live in. :)
 
I have quite a bit of Norma brass for my hunting guns and like it
However, when I was competing I used nothing but Lapua after I found that it was so uniform there was no need to sort , uniform or do anything except to load and shoot it!
Cat
 
Well gentlemen, I would have to tend to agree with the general jist of this post, but would like to add that Hornady brass is every bit as much garbage as FC.........my experience with Norma and Lapua is very minimal but I do have some Lapua 6.5X55 and it does seem like nice brass. As most of you know, I am a big W-W fan when it comes to brass...........just never had access to Lapua when younger, nor the means to buy it if I could have.
Yes I know, W-W quality is diminishing and availability of bulk brass is almost non existant, but I still prefer it, as I have the time now, to go through it and sort and prep it. I have found it to be the hardest and lightest brass commonly made. Lapua is not available in most cases that I like to run the snot out of, (belted mags) and for this, I have found W-W to be superior to Norma. Now if Winchester would only make brass for the RUMs, life would be complete..........
 
Brutus said:
Ditto! My experience with excellent quality 308 Lapua brass as well. And regarding Norma brass, I custom convert many differing brands of H&H Magnum cases to 458x2inch American.
Hence I've found two brand names that I avoid in the discarded brass range bucket at our club; Norma and Federal. Frequently they have loose primer pockets, just after a single discharge.
The only other brands I seek out is Remington and Weatherby. Some rich oil patch guy actually discards once fired Weatherby brass!!! $$$$$
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So you avoid Norma brass, but like Weatherby brass? It's made by Norma.
 
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