Is the .40S&W caliber a useful round between the 9mm and .45ACP?

[nelly]

Personally I think it's pointless...the only thing it does better than the 9mm is penetrate intermediate barriers, but even then I think it's the bare minimum for barrier penetration.

I guess if you can't do .40TC, but you are concerned about windshields etc, then the .40S&W makes sense.

But for me, the practical defensive round is the 9mm, the macho throwback round is the .45, the nuclear warhead is the .40TC, and .40s&w is just...I don't know. The wrong solution to a problem IMO. I would consider running it through my G20 with a conversion barrel, I guess. But I would never buy a dedicated .40s&w gun.

9mm is perfectly capable of penetrating a windshield - as capable as any handgun calibre. The chance that deformation of projectile, loss of energy, and redirection of projectile path occurring is virtually the same with 9mm, .40, and .45 - Trust me: I do crime scene work for a living, in Gangcouver! I have seen people just as dead from 9mm as .40. It is all about shot placement, and plain luck on what happens inside the body. I have seen a 9mm round penetrate a garage door, 2 layers of drywall into a mud room, 2 layers of drywall into the living room, through the television set, and through the wooden blinds at the rear of the house.

Let me say that again: It is all about shot placement, regardless of calibre, but mostly about luck.

I have also seen a fellow shot 4 times with .45, and 9 times with 9mm... Survive.

I have seen a fellow shot 6 times in the torso with .40... survive.

I have seen someone take one .22LR round who died instantly.

Use whatever you want - There is no magic silver bullet in handgun energy class to guarantee an instant stop, which is a TOTALLY moot point when we consider the Canadian (legal) civilian shooting paradigm of 10 round limit in the magazine, to put holes in paper.

Crikey, my favorite range round IS .22LR, because I can shoot 500 round per range trip, for under $15! If you want to spend more money on ammo, it IS a free country.

 

[liberal-hater]

It's supposed to be a compromise between both worlds.

Most police services in Canada use it.

Just a quick aside... it's irritating that police departments bill themselves as "police services", like they are doing the public a generous favor.

On topic now, I like .40 just fine, but my favorite is .45 in a defense environment, and gentle little 9mm will do the job fine too with the right bullet.

 

[rangebob]

Looks like I've been misinformed. Thanks for the correction.

You posted "Most police services in Canada use it", whereas the text file I posted counted the number of firearms. So I got to wondering if what you said was also true as stated. I haven't added it up, but FYI, someone at CGN posted these images a while back:
http://www.rangebob.com/CanadianPoliceFirearms/home.htm

 

[Voxx Boxx]

Which agency uses .32?

I had this in one of the text files I saved. The total seems a little small (about half the number of police).

 

[DATAM]

Not much reason to create inbetween calibres, but it makes the firearms industry cater to the "never satisfied crowd" and keeps the cash registers ringing.

The .40 is a good calibre, and has some following; high capacity magazines, and extra penetration is what everyone seems to go for these days.

I choose to remain firmly stuck in the past; the quality not quantity realm of practicality; the old .45 acp is still hard to beat.

 

[rangebob]

Which agency uses .32?

Beats me. It may be more of a question of 'still has', rather than 'uses'.

 

[rangebob]

I choose to remain firmly stuck in the past; the quality not quantity realm of practicality; the old .45 acp is still hard to beat.

Civilians seem to own the .45 three times more often than the .40.

Semiauto Handguns:
40: 4.04%
7.65: 10.73%
45: 13.67%
9: 32.62%
22: 38.94%

Revolver Handguns:
45: 4.38%
32: 7.79%
44: 12.25%
38: 22.59%
357: 24.06%
22: 28.93%

 

[rhshooter]

The studies seem to show that in the real world all three calibers are effective manstoppers and have about the same effect. Many thousands of people have been killed with the 9mm and didn't have any complaints. Since it is the cheapest and most controllable of the 3 that is what I go with. I enjoy shooting the 45 but I'm not really a fan of the 40 as I find it very snappy and harder to get back on target for the follow up shots.

Jeff

 

[misanthropist]

9mm is perfectly capable of penetrating a windshield - as capable as any handgun calibre. The chance that deformation of projectile, loss of energy, and redirection of projectile path occurring is virtually the same with 9mm, .40, and .45 - Trust me: I do crime scene work for a living, in Gangcouver! I have seen people just as dead from 9mm as .40. It is all about shot placement, and plain luck on what happens inside the body. I have seen a 9mm round penetrate a garage door, 2 layers of drywall into a mud room, 2 layers of drywall into the living room, through the television set, and through the wooden blinds at the rear of the house.

Let me say that again: It is all about shot placement, regardless of calibre, but mostly about luck.

I have also seen a fellow shot 4 times with .45, and 9 times with 9mm... Survive.

I have seen a fellow shot 6 times in the torso with .40... survive.

I have seen someone take one .22LR round who died instantly.

Use whatever you want - There is no magic silver bullet in handgun energy class to guarantee an instant stop, which is a TOTALLY moot point when we consider the Canadian (legal) civilian shooting paradigm of 10 round limit in the magazine, to put holes in paper.

Crikey, my favorite range round IS .22LR, because I can shoot 500 round per range trip, for under $15! If you want to spend more money on ammo, it IS a free country.

Every study I have seen implies a substantially higher failure rate of 9mm ammo on windshields than .40...other than that I agree that shot placement is the most important factor by far.

A lot of interesting info - much of it professional-grade - is available in the Terminal Ballistics forum at M4C...Gary Roberts posts there, for example. If you would like further information on why I would prefer calibers other than 9mm for barrier penetration I would advise you to look there...otherwise I would just be repeating, in layman's terms, what you could get directly from the horse's mouth, and which you would probably be in a better position to understand than me anyway.

"wrong solution to a problem" is a reference to the famous FBI shootout. I do not believe that equipping those agents with .40s&w pistols would have changed the outcome dramatically. 9mm is not the problem, so .40s&w is not the solution.

 

[Steve David]

.40 is a good round, but it was the answer to no real problem.

 

[300Spartans]

Just a quick aside... it's irritating that police departments bill themselves as "police services", like they are doing the public a generous favor.

I don't see why that would irritate you. Does EMS (Emergency Medical Services) irritate you as well? The police aren't into doing anyone favours, but they do function as the law enforcers for their respective communities. Like the military, they are a "service".

 

[B]

.40 is a good round, but it was the answer to no real problem.

It was the answer to a very real problem. 10mm was too much for your average FBI agent, guns were too big and the blast was too much. I know what you are getting at though.

 

[Greenhorse six]

Another thing to keep in mind about the .40S&W ,is that it was developed at a time when hollow points where still being figured out as to what really worked and didn't work in a 9mm, and so the best way to deal with it was to make the bullet bigger to start with rather then have trust the reliability of expansion,which didn't alway happien as needed.

 

[carsmovies]

Another thing to keep in mind about the .40S&W ,is that it was developed at a time when hollow points where still being figured out as to what really worked and didn't work in a 9mm, and so the best way to deal with it was to make the bullet bigger to start with rather then have trust the reliability of expansion,which didn't alway happien as needed.

The only reason the .40 was developed was to replace the 10mm which was found to be too big. The 10mm was developed to appease the US government cause they had the stupid opinion that the two FBI agents that died in the gun fight did so cause they only had 9mm pistols. The reason they lost the gun fight was cause they were fighting against assault rifles and not because the 9mm was not sufficient enough of a defence round.

 

[Greenhorse six]

The only reason the .40 was developed was to replace the 10mm which was found to be too big. The 10mm was developed to appease the US government cause they had the stupid opinion that the two FBI agents that died in the gun fight did so cause they only had 9mm pistols. The reason they lost the gun fight was cause they were fighting against assault rifles and not because the 9mm was not sufficient enough of a defence round.

"sigh", Already said some of that,and they said "Part of the reason was they were under gunned, as in the 9mm ammo used wasn't doing the job.and like I've already posted,bigger bullets will over come poor bullet design.

and they developed the 10mm and that begat the .40S&W and so on.......

 

[BP7]

well, it's interesting that more than 75% votes so far like it considering the more visible divide on here between 9 and 45. i haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, so my vote is still pending but based on overall market availability (firearms and the ammo itself), it seems that it's pretty damned popular and has a home.

 

[B]

The only reason the .40 was developed was to replace the 10mm which was found to be too big. The 10mm was developed to appease the US government cause they had the stupid opinion that the two FBI agents that died in the gun fight did so cause they only had 9mm pistols. The reason they lost the gun fight was cause they were fighting against assault rifles and not because the 9mm was not sufficient enough of a defence round.

No it wasn't. It was developed by Norma based on recommendations by one of the most experienced and learned handgun shooters ever born. They not only met his recommendations they exceeded them. Leading to a magnum class rimless pistol cartridge called the 10mm Auto.

 

[carsmovies]

No it wasn't. It was developed by Norma based on recommendations by one of the most experienced and learned handgun shooters ever born. They not only met his recommendations they exceeded them. Leading to a magnum class rimless pistol cartridge called the 10mm Auto.

Maybe but why was the 10mm developed in the first place?

 

[rangebob]

No it wasn't. It was developed by Norma based on recommendations by one of the most experienced and learned handgun shooters ever born. They not only met his recommendations they exceeded them. Leading to a magnum class rimless pistol cartridge called the 10mm Auto.

Any chance you're both right?
At least that it was developed by Jeff Cooper and Norma, and
then the FBI tried it but decided to move to .40.

The 10mm Auto (10x25mm, official C.I.P. nomenclature 10 mm Auto) is a semi-automatic pistol cartridge developed by Jeff Cooper introduced in 1983 for the Bren Ten pistol. It was initially produced by ammunition manufacturer FFV Norma AB of Åmotfors, Sweden.

Although it was selected by the FBI for use in the field, their Firearms Training Unit "concluded that its recoil was excessive in terms of training for average agent/police officer competency of use and qualification," and the pistols that chambered it were too large for some small-handed individuals. These issues led to the creation and eventual adoption of a shortened version of the 10 mm that would evolve into what is today the .40 S&W.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm

 

[Greenhorse six]

Maybe but why was the 10mm developed in the first place?

In the endless pursuit of the "PERFECT" hand gun round, like any other new ones, ,357sig, .38super [this one was more for where poeple weren't allowed to own .45acp or like military chambered guns,i.e Mexico],ad so on.