Is the gunsmithing trade made up mostly of armorers?

ninepointer

ninepointer

CGN frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
45   0   0
Location
Central Ontario
I'd been inquiring here, there and everywhere about having an obsolete part made for a gun and have come to the conclusion that if a gunsmith can't order the part, he has zero interest in the job. I always viewed gunsmiths as machinists at heart, but if the profession is now simply about swapping parts, isn't that the definition of an armorer?

I eventually found my solution, but it doesn't involve anyone who uses the title "gunsmith".

There must be more to this and perhaps the gunsmiths could shed some light.
 
Two years of gunsmithing school at Trinidad, Colorado 1966-67. Then work a job and slave for 30 years with your wife working too... once the mortgage is paid you can afford to gunsmith only but after another 15 years you get selective on the jobs you will do... and the jobs you no longer do...
 
I work with a guy that is a "gunsmith" and he fixes and makes new parts. Saw him make a couple steel glock guide rods the other day, welded up, shaped and polished and blued an extended slide release for a ruger mkII, etc.... He does it part time for the joy of doing it, and trades/barters for the work sometimes. They ARE out there.
 
You're not wrong. The issue is that in Canada functionally anyone who wants can open business as a gunsmith. In other places, notably Europe, a person needs years of specialized dedicated training. Open a business in Germany as a "gunsmith" when all you know how to do is use youtube to look up how to swap parts and you'll probably get shut down because there are controls on being a gunsmith.

In the old world a person might spend ten years or more training as a gunsmith, in Canada we get an internet correspondance course that you don't actually have to do in order to call yourself a gunsmith.

I would say the number of proper gunsmiths in Canada are very few, because tooling up is damned expensive and takes expertise to use properly.
 
I think it is a question of economics; I am not a gunsmith but I do make parts to repair my own (mostly antique) guns. It is usually time consuming and often frustrating, particularly if you do not have all of the original pieces or a second gun to copy from. For a working gunsmith to spend that much time on most guns is just not worth it, particularly if you can buy a factory made replacement for $10 or $20 and save 10- or 20 hours work. Even something like a simple V shaped mainspring takes about 3 - 4 hours to make, temper and fit vs probably around $15 to buy

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
I think it is a question of economics; I am not a gunsmith but I do make parts to repair my own (mostly antique) guns. It is usually time consuming and often frustrating, particularly if you do not have all of the original pieces or a second gun to copy from. For a working gunsmith to spend that much time on most guns is just not worth it, particularly if you can buy a factory made replacement for $10 or $20 and save 10- or 20 hours work. Even something like a simple V shaped mainspring takes about 3 - 4 hours to make, temper and fit vs probably around $15 to buy

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...
.....And if you don't get it done when the customer wants it done you get badmouthed and trashed by keyboard monkeys on every forum out there.
 
FALover said:
.....And if you don't get it done when the customer wants it done you get badmouthed and trashed by keyboard monkeys on every forum out there.
Click to expand...
and then if your lucky , they come back for there junk and pay there bill. crying the whole time about how expensive it is. ( what do you mean, I only paid $40. for that enfield, now you want $60. to replace the bolt I lost)
 
nope. trained for tool and die and cnc machinist. worked apprenticing for 3 almost 4 years. but the pay was far from what i needed to keep a 5 person family afloat. ($12.50)
 
Ill just start the list of knowledge and experience in some categories required for someone to call himself a gunsmith.
Metallurgy
Metal forming
Chemistry
Woodworking
Tool making
History
Artistry
Inletting
Engraving
Blacksmithing
Hand making first then machining
Mathematics, physics, geometry, trigonometry
Research, reading, writing, capable
Ballistics
Reloading
Shooting
 
I build/repair/replace parts for medical devices, usually deal with small local companies.
Like your gunsmith, I have learned over the years, to pick and choose my work.
There are some repairs that just scream "the customer will not be happy, no matter what, guaranteed"
Thems the ones I simply refuse or steer the customer in another direction.

I would like to think I'm providing the customer great service by avoiding high priced repairs
that may not be worth it and that he will NEVER be happy with.

Just my $0.03 cents worth (inflation)
 
SIGP2101 said:
Ill just start the list of knowledge and experience in some categories required for someone to call himself a gunsmith.
Metallurgy
Metal forming
Chemistry
Woodworking
Tool making
History
Artistry
Inletting
Engraving
Blacksmithing
Hand making first then machining
Mathematics, physics, geometry, trigonometry
Research, reading, writing, capable
Ballistics
Reloading
Shooting
Click to expand...

You forgot the ones that have killed more gunsmiths businesses than any of those, which are Book keeping, Accounting, and Small Business Management skills.

Lots of guys out there with talent and interest in guns. Few that have been able to find the balance in their business to be able to work and eat regularly.

Cheers
Trev
 
trevj said:
You forgot the ones that have killed more gunsmiths businesses than any of those, which are Book keeping, Accounting, and Small Business Management skills.

Lots of guys out there with talent and interest in guns. Few that have been able to find the balance in their business to be able to work and eat regularly.

Cheers
Trev
Click to expand...

Allow me to disagree. I know what you mean but got nothing to do with being able to built internal Mauser action wrench for example. You can be as broke as possible but you are still tradesman.
 
No such thing as an armorer in Canada. Armourers only and they are not gunsmiths. There are no schools(Except one French speaking only school, if it's still running), apprenticeships or anything else here either. Like Stevebot-7 says, anybody can call themselves a gunsmith. The Socialist F**ks effectively killed the entire industry.
 
We had to go and bring in an Icelander and before that a guy from Switzerland to get someone who actually apprenticed and trained to be a gunsmith and not simply an armourer.

JR
 
It's getting to be the same with auto mechanics as well......no one can fix anything.

The good news is soon we will be able to scan and print what we need with our smart phones and 3d printers...:dancingbanana:
 
SIGP2101 said:
Allow me to disagree. I know what you mean but got nothing to do with being able to built internal Mauser action wrench for example. You can be as broke as possible but you are still tradesman.
Click to expand...

You can buy one for less than it costs to make one, and the time spent can be better used to install a couple other brought in parts to help pay the bills.
Everyone fantasizes that it is all about Craftsmanship, when in reality, it is about being in, and staying in, Business!

The guys that are still in the business after all these years are the few that found a balance between billable work, and the stuff they do that is uneconomical, as far as time eaters go.

The folks that make all their parts are seldom doing so at a paying rate. Some though, are, but they are few and far between, and charge out enough to live on, too.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, guys want to get off cheap. They bring a mass produced, consumer commodity, in to have repairs done. Do you shop for a guy that can make you a set of rings for your car? Or a guy that will bring in the best set that fits your needs and installs them?

This whole handcraft craftsmanship thing is a fantasy. You want that, shop at Holland and Holland. Prepare to pay. A Lot! You want affordable, you get a guy buying replacement parts and hopefully not leaving his own hacks and scratches on the gun that he is working on. That latter is competent workmanship, rather than craftsmanship. Even that is rare enough these days, apparently.

Cheers
Trev
 
ninepointer said:
I'd been inquiring here, there and everywhere about having an obsolete part made for a gun and have come to the conclusion that if a gunsmith can't order the part, he has zero interest in the job. I always viewed gunsmiths as machinists at heart, but if the profession is now simply about swapping parts, isn't that the definition of an armorer?

I eventually found my solution, but it doesn't involve anyone who uses the title "gunsmith".

There must be more to this and perhaps the gunsmiths could shed some light.
Click to expand...

The really short answer to your part dilemma is that if you find a fella that can make it, like as not, you will flinch at the price he has to charge to afford to do so. Pretty simple economics.

The guy you want to talk to, runs a machine shop, and who is willing to take on a 'one of' job, and be willing to make gun parts. He'll want accurate blueprints/drawings, with material specs and heat treatment requirements, as well as reasonable dimensional tolerances. Got those?

What gun, what part? Have you tried a WTB thread in the appropriate category in the Equipment Exchange.

Would you be upset if you took a Morris Minor (uncommon, older model and make of car, chosen off the top of my head) to the local corner mechanic, and found that he would not actually make the parts he could not buy for it? Why the concern here? Same same. Mass produced to a price. Parts no longer available. Not a hard thing to figure out once you think on it some.

I think a lot of the whole problem is a deep misunderstanding of what and who a Gunsmith is, and how he makes a living, esp. these days.

I heard a saying about Blacksmiths. You have a Blacksmith in your town? No? Think on that. The saying went along the lines that a Blacksmith could make anything except a living at it. That about sums up that. Gotta make a living. If you cannot charge what your time is worth, one had best enjoy their hobby of supporting other folks hobbies. Which is exactly what a Gunsmith that does not charge out what the time is worth, is ending up doing.


Cheers
Trev
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom