Is the gunsmithing trade made up mostly of armorers?

trevj said:
The really short answer to your part dilemma is that if you find a fella that can make it, like as not, you will flinch at the price he has to charge to afford to do so. Pretty simple economics.

The guy you want to talk to, runs a machine shop, and who is willing to take on a 'one of' job, and be willing to make gun parts. He'll want accurate blueprints/drawings, with material specs and heat treatment requirements, as well as reasonable dimensional tolerances. Got those?

What gun, what part? Have you tried a WTB thread in the appropriate category in the Equipment Exchange.

Would you be upset if you took a Morris Minor (uncommon, older model and make of car, chosen off the top of my head) to the local corner mechanic, and found that he would not actually make the parts he could not buy for it? Why the concern here? Same same. Mass produced to a price. Parts no longer available. Not a hard thing to figure out once you think on it some.

I think a lot of the whole problem is a deep misunderstanding of what and who a Gunsmith is, and how he makes a living, esp. these days.

I heard a saying about Blacksmiths. You have a Blacksmith in your town? No? Think on that. The saying went along the lines that a Blacksmith could make anything except a living at it. That about sums up that. Gotta make a living. If you cannot charge what your time is worth, one had best enjoy their hobby of supporting other folks hobbies. Which is exactly what a Gunsmith that does not charge out what the time is worth, is ending up doing.


Cheers
Trev
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I still do some parts and machining at the shop. Had o make a thread protector for a browning with a boss on the end. The guy didnt want the boss replacement so I made one. For a real cost it wojld have been about 100 to 130 $ in labour not including cost of material. (Lathe work, polishing, sandblasting, and finishing it to look nice) took about 4 to 5 hours to make it out of the material that was available.

People want custom parts but dont seem to want to pay for it. Id love to have my own shop to make custom target rifles. But with no name for myself let alone start up funds it just would not work (no bank is going to fund a gunsmithing start up)
 
ARIES, you mention taking 4-5 hours to make but also state the labour cost is about $100-$130? That means your charging LESS than $30/hour using a lathe, sandblaster and other assorted material for the job. Could any trade operate a shop, with all associated tooling, heating, electrical, insurance, maintenance, taxes, on $30/hour? You sound like you're a good tradesman but would you be able to operate a shop on that? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, just pointing out that basic hourly pay won't keep a business afloat.
 
big boar said:
ARIES, you mention taking 4-5 hours to make but also state the labour cost is about $100-$130? That means your charging LESS than $30/hour using a lathe, sandblaster and other assorted material for the job. Could any trade operate a shop, with all associated tooling, heating, electrical, insurance, maintenance, taxes, on $30/hour? You sound like you're a good tradesman but would you be able to operate a shop on that? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, just pointing out that basic hourly pay won't keep a business afloat.
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If I ran a proper shop id have apropriate sized material for doing the work. Not a left over 1.25" chunk of barrel blank that needed to be turned down to .8" on a lathe with no coolant or proper cutting tools.

If I had a proper sized chunk of bar stock it may have taken 2 hours and cost around the 100 mark. Idont run this business I help out when they are really backed up.
 
Getting a little bit off the rails but, If I am adding this up correctly it took ~3 hours (4-5 minus 2) to turn down a couple of inches from 1.25" dia. to .8"? Holly frack, guess they don't have proper cutting tools - make you turn it down with a lathe file?
 
Aries- said:
If I ran a proper shop id have apropriate sized material for doing the work. Not a left over 1.25" chunk of barrel blank that needed to be turned down to .8" on a lathe with no coolant or proper cutting tools.

If I had a proper sized chunk of bar stock it may have taken 2 hours and cost around the 100 mark. Idont run this business I help out when they are really backed up.
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I'm wonderin' about that time too.

Gotta learn how to make the machine work for ya! A HSS steel tool on a lightweight lathe should be a pretty easy run to burn off 25-50 thou at a pass at a pretty decent removal rate. Not really a requirement to run the machine fast, if you can gear it down and take a decent depth of cut at a decent feed rate. Chip just fall into the tray when you do that too, cuts down the clean-up time! :) Whole 'nuther subject, though too, even if it IS one of my favorites.

Cheers
Trev
 
I've only ever met 'one' guy I'd say who could honestly call himself a "gunsmith".

All the rest were just hacks.. Well meaning hacks, but hacks non the less.
 
A&Shuntr said:
Getting a little bit off the rails but, If I am adding this up correctly it took ~3 hours (4-5 minus 2) to turn down a couple of inches from 1.25" dia. to .8"? Holly frack, guess they don't have proper cutting tools - make you turn it down with a lathe file?
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I don't think you read the complete quote by Aries; it was not just turning a piece of barrel down but drilling and threading the inside, polishing and sand blasting and refinishing the outside. Any one is a relatively small job but collectively they add up

Something that no one has mentioned so far are the problems and repairs that often crop up as you start to get into the original job. I often will start a job thinking that should be just a simple repair and then find all sorts of additional headaches that must or at least should be fixed as well

cheers mooncoon
 
WestIslandRifle said:
True gun smithing is a dying art in my book
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I disagree... maybe another way to saying it - True Gunsmithing is being purchased by fewer shooters but they can afford and appreciate the costs.

Gunsmithing today is no different then the custom hot rod/Harley/furniture-home market. Those who have the means and desire to get something truly unique and different WILL pay and they will get what they want.

How many will debate the sense of upgrading a WWII German relic to custom hunting standards? Lots but the few that want these happily pay sums that stagger the mind. AFAIK, the most expensive hunting rifles I have seen were rebuilt Mausers.

So, if the goal is to have a true Gunsmith build a rifle to fit your every dream and whim, they are out there but they are not interested in haggling over $25 here and $50 there. It will cost what it costs and EVERY spec will be met.

These Gunsmiths are also very busy so expect to wait.

if the goal is cheap, fast AND good..... somewhere along the line, you will not be getting all that you expect.

YMMV.

Jerry

PS FYI, most machine shops have a $75 to $125/hr shop rate. Custom work likely adds a premium to this. Trying to replicate a "$15 part" on a custom basis is simply NOT going to happen... or better, customer will not want to pay.
 
trevj said:
I'm wonderin' about that time too.

Gotta learn how to make the machine work for ya! A HSS steel tool on a lightweight lathe should be a pretty easy run to burn off 25-50 thou at a pass at a pretty decent removal rate. Not really a requirement to run the machine fast, if you can gear it down and take a decent depth of cut at a decent feed rate. Chip just fall into the tray when you do that too, cuts down the clean-up time! :) Whole 'nuther subject, though too, even if it IS one of my favorites.

Cheers
Trev
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Thats not just turn down time. Thats knurling, Internal threading, filing the non knurled part to remove tooling marks, sandblast the outside, fix internal thread after grit from sandblaster screwed 1 thread.

Only have a small number of tool holders and small number of carbide cutters. Not going to spend the time ordering hss when id be the only one using them.
 
It is the same in all trades, I am an electric motor winder as my first trade and I've had guys want me to rewind the charge coil for their snow machine. My response "Can't you buy one?" Oh ya but they want like 180 bucks is the usual response, to which I smile and hand them back their little magneto coil and explain the costs of labor rates and insurances and power and...and...and........I also work on guns and have owned 3 businesses over the years and I have never been able to figure out how gunsmiths could make a living in Canada. 300-1000 dollar off the shelf rifles that most will shoot into an inch, plus the fact that most Canadians are cheap when it comes to repairs of any kind let alone custom workmanship, which comes right off the top of disposable income not to be confused with essentials.
In business I got to the point that I refused to do work for individuals as I either never got paid or they were never happy and it always cost too much. I almost always only do work for corporate customers who understand 120/ hr charge out rates and a reasonable margin on materials.
I work on guns because I love the final product and I am a bit of a perfectionist and my time is my own to spend however I see fit, I have certainly never been fast enough at it to make a living, but I do have pride in that which I have done, including making small parts from time to time. Hell, I even made a part for my airplane one time because it could not be readily purchased and if one could be found it could take 6 months, or they wanted to sell me a whole new heater unit for a paltry 3000 bucks. A worthwhile endeavor for the 4 hours it took to make, in the big picture and it wasn't a critical flight part so what the hell. The other upside was that I got to replace a plastic part with aluminum, never to break again.
Virtually any machinist or tool and die maker could be a gunsmith, they have the necessary trained skills if they have the interest, it's just that you are back to dealing with the general public and trying to relieve them of their disposable income, which ain't easy!!

Just for general knowledge out there, I have a friend who is a trained machinist and tool and die maker who specializes in making oddball and unbuyable gun parts. He also knows every source who may have that part to sell so he is a valuable asset for that alone. I'd have to check with him if he is okay with giving his name and number out, if anyone needs special parts made..........he also isn't cheap, his market is mostly obsolete English double rifles and very high end shotguns.
 
c-fbmi said:
In business I got to the point that I refused to do work for individuals as I either never got paid or they were never happy and it always cost too much. I almost always only do work for corporate customers who understand 120/ hr charge out rates and a reasonable margin on materials.
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Corporate customers rarely , if ever, come to your workplace and waste three hours of your time BS'ing about guns and hunting, drinking your coffee and generally keeping you from getting paying work done.

People used to ask to have hockey bags made all the time at work. "$300" "$300?, I can get one at Canadian Tire for $90!" "Yup! That's where I buy mine!"

One of the fellas on the practicalmachinist site dealt with a particular shop visitor by handing him a broom, or putting him to work cleaning sumps on the machines every time the came behind the 'line'. Said it worked, eventually.

Lots of things are nice as hobbies, but a booger to make an actual living at.
I'd rather enjoy my hobbies.


Cheers
Trev
 
Trev, Jerry, Mooncoon and others on here, I'm sure you're all well familiar with the old saying.....

Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick Two!
 
trevj said:
Corporate customers rarely , if ever, come to your workplace and waste three hours of your time BS'ing about guns and hunting, drinking your coffee and generally keeping you from getting paying work done.

People used to ask to have hockey bags made all the time at work. "$300" "$300?, I can get one at Canadian Tire for $90!" "Yup! That's where I buy mine!"

One of the fellas on the practicalmachinist site dealt with a particular shop visitor by handing him a broom, or putting him to work cleaning sumps on the machines every time the came behind the 'line'. Said it worked, eventually.

Lots of things are nice as hobbies, but a booger to make an actual living at.
I'd rather enjoy my hobbies.


Cheers
Trev
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I remember that thread, I think there were a few other gems in that one.

I am a tool and die maker as well as a designer, I only do my own (air)gunsmith work generally, no one wants to pay for craftsmanship.
 
In my neckadawoods,
is that some guys who want quality are willing and happy to pay and get it done. To those I find the most satisfaction as craftsmanship is still appreciated. I've always believed gunsmithing is art and science combined.

The rest are the typical only looking for fast, cheap and done. Truth is there aren't enough smiths out there for that anymore and those guns end up never getting fixed. I have spent countless hours fixing old hunting guns and never really getting paid for my time. What started as a small fix ended up being a complete overhaul. I now tell the customer once I get into it I'll update them if and when something else needs to be done and the cost to do so.
Sometimes, it's "Go ahead" or "I'll be down to pick it up." To some people spending $50 on a gun repair is too much.

Will I ever make any real money at this, maybe?
 
lejarretnoir said:
In my neckadawoods,
is that some guys who want quality are willing and happy to pay and get it done. To those I find the most satisfaction as craftsmanship is still appreciated. I've always believed gunsmithing is art and science combined.

The rest are the typical only looking for fast, cheap and done. Truth is there aren't enough smiths out there for that anymore and those guns end up never getting fixed. I have spent countless hours fixing old hunting guns and never really getting paid for my time. What started as a small fix ended up being a complete overhaul. I now tell the customer once I get into it I'll update them if and when something else needs to be done and the cost to do so.
Sometimes, it's "Go ahead" or "I'll be down to pick it up." To some people spending $50 on a gun repair is too much.

Will I ever make any real money at this, maybe?
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problem now adays are the new cheap guns, the 787, axis, trophy hunter, american, and what have you. guns cost $400 after taxes. something breaks on them the hourly wage and parts are a large % of the cost you paid, no one wants that. to many people want cheap #### these days, and wont pay to have it fixed as it costs over 80 bucks for something significant. ive talked to several warranty places and the importers are pretty much telling them. Scrap the "broken" gun and replace it. its cheaper.
 
I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that can make a whole rifle from scratch. I often dream of getting a 5 axis milling center and a lathe with live tooling. After i spend 300k on machines and a building, I'll have to sell a rifle a month for about 4k just to make the payments. I could get outfitted with a decent used lathe and mill, tool up, still have to build the building, and have considerable lower startup costs. Fixturing and tool making will take the same time for both setups probably. The rub, i'll still have to sell rifles for 4k to break even because each one will take 6 months to build.

Oh, and i'd still have to learn how to build a stock.

Chances are this isn't happening in my lifetime.
 
building a basic bolt action rifle isnt all that hard. it is getting it heat treated and such properly that is the difficult part. the stocks arent terribly hard. i have built a few rifles from difficult kits where the stock was a rough shape and you had to fit and inlet the stock then finish it and all the metal parts.

as much as i love gunsmithing and making custom rifles. there is no way anyone could have it as their main job. the time put into it with costs of running machinery and such far out weigh the costs you can charge the customer. even businesses with a gunsmith attached cant break even on the gunsmithing.
 
mooncoon said:
Forge welding is something that I wish that I had the ability to do :>(

cheers mooncoon
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Take a Blacksmithing course and learn then, or hook up with a 'Smith and spend an afternoon learning how.

No secret handshakes or eye of newt involved, you bring the parts up to heat, make sure they are clean and fluxed, and tap them together. Done.

Western Development Museum in Saskatoon used to run a course of Basic Blacksmithing a couple times a year. May still. Worth spending a weekend there for!

If y'all have not seen Bailey Bradshaw's work. Y'oughtta! :D
His Damascus Double Rifle was pretty cool! And a right bargain at $5k a copy at the time. I think he's charging more these days.

Cheers
Trev
 
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