Is the gunsmithing trade made up mostly of armorers?

[cody c]

.....And if you don't get it done when the customer wants it done you get badmouthed and trashed by keyboard monkeys on every forum out there.

I don't know your work, so this isn't a comment on your work, but most of the smiths I've had do work for me took double to triple the amount of time they quoted me, not the time I decided it should take them, but what they quoted me, furthermore none of them would call or email to let me know when things were unfinished or even started a long time after when they said they should e finished.

The only one who achieved their estimated time was Corlanes out of Dawson creek, I'm thinking either you have obnoxious customers, on an inability to estimate and keep to your time frames you quote, and then blame it on a customer. The latter being a big accusation which is not where I meant to take my comment, so perhaps you can share more about your experiences with people's ridiculous expectations to support the first possible reason, which I hope is the case, but I bet a lot of smiths see their customers the way you have described.

Furthermore, I like to BS about guns and smithing as much as the next guy, but I have met more then one smith that almost wouldn't let me get out of their shop, one I would try to quickly
Drop something off and it would take me 50 minutes till he stopped talking.

As per stated above, I also suspect many of the issues with many gunsmiths are related
More to their ability to run a buisness properly then to run a lathe.

 

[c-fbmi]

I don't do this for a living (Thank God), but I have to be in the right mindset to do certain jobs. If I'm not in that mindset and getting pushed to complete something I will almost always f**k something up and have to redo it. Hence more wasted time I'm not getting paid for, which is always too little in the first place. (Usually free plus materials, I do it for the experience and fun)
I believe in giving craftsmen almost unlimited time when doing work for me and I seldom ask the price before hand. I find I usually get a better job and the cost is generally acceptable. I have had lots of custom gun work done as well as lots of custom car work done (autobody) and this seems to be the best approach in my experience. I always have a good idea of what the cost should be going in and understand that my custom work is not what these guys make a living from. I also understand the mood/mindset thing I alluded to earlier, and I assume most everyone is the same.

 

[dahs]

I don't do this for a living (Thank God), but I have to be in the right mindset to do certain jobs. If I'm not in that mindset and getting pushed to complete something I will almost always f**k something up and have to redo it. Hence more wasted time I'm not getting paid for, which is always too little in the first place. (Usually free plus materials, I do it for the experience and fun)
I believe in giving craftsmen almost unlimited time when doing work for me and I seldom ask the price before hand. I find I usually get a better job and the cost is generally acceptable. I have had lots of custom gun work done as well as lots of custom car work done (autobody) and this seems to be the best approach in my experience. I always have a good idea of what the cost should be going in and understand that my custom work is not what these guys make a living from. I also understand the mood/mindset thing I alluded to earlier, and I assume most everyone is the same.

I was just about to compare gunsmithing to good body and paint work. Always just seems to be a matter of dropping it off and saying, "call me when it's done." Don't bug them, don't try and bargain, and most of all try and understand the work that goes into it.

I like the comparison to body work. I've spent three or four days just getting one panel ready for paint. You see the finished product and most people can't even comprehend that there's 20 hours of work in one panel.

 

[SIGP2101]

You can buy one for less than it costs to make one, and the time spent can be better used to install a couple other brought in parts to help pay the bills.
Everyone fantasizes that it is all about Craftsmanship, when in reality, it is about being in, and staying in, Business!

Anyone can buy and sell that doesn't make one a gunsmith, being able to make all you need including tools makes you one. You missed entire point of the first post.
PHD in business is not required for gunsmith nor armorer. Craftsmanship dedication and artistry is required most of all.


Cheers

 

[c-fbmi]

Anyone can buy and sell that doesn't make one a gunsmith, being able to make all you need including tools makes you one. You missed entire point of the first post.
PHD in business is not required for gunsmith nor armorer. Craftsmanship dedication and artistry is required most of all.


Cheers

As much as I would like to agree, the cold hard facts disagree with you. I have known several men who were the "best of the best" at what they did, but went broke in business. All the craftsmanship and artistry in the world does not make you a successful businessman. Then there is the fact that you're attempting to make a living from other peoples disposable income, a tough go right off the start, these days, and the fact that you are dealing at an individual customer level instead of a corporate level. Given the previous stated reasons, you will have to be a very shrewd businessman to eek out a living doing nothing but gunsmithing in Canada. This is why you will almost always see gunsmithing tied in with a retail sales shop, this provides the margin to be able to allow them to offer gunsmithing as a service.

 

[Aries-]

Anyone can buy and sell that doesn't make one a gunsmith, being able to make all you need including tools makes you one. You missed entire point of the first post.
PHD in business is not required for gunsmith nor armorer. Craftsmanship dedication and artistry is required most of all.


Cheers

Problem is. A "gunsmith" that does nothing but one off and hand made parts will go broke within 6 months. They need to have the business sense to know what jobs to take on (ie ones that they can do and charge for and actualy get their money). Not going to get your money if you charge $50 in labour and 20 in material costs to try and make a new firing pin for an old mossberg 195k shotgun thats 75% of what the gun is worth. But if you can find one forsale for $20 and charge 30$ to install you may get your cost out of it.

 

[trevj]

Anyone can buy and sell that doesn't make one a gunsmith, being able to make all you need including tools makes you one. You missed entire point of the first post.
PHD in business is not required for gunsmith nor armorer. Craftsmanship dedication and artistry is required most of all.


Cheers

Horse sheet!

Gunsmith = Business.

No money = No food on the table, tools in the shop, lights, power, etc.

Hobbyists fantasize that the pro's got into it because they love it, and hobby gun guys and hobby metalworkers seem to be the wort for this. Gunsmiths and Machinists have work to do.

Gotta pay the bills, otherwise the business is gonna fail.

Lots of hobbyists that thought it was all about fun with guns, found that out the hard way over the years, when their Businesses flopped.

For Craftsmanship, you either have to shop somewhere where they don't charge out at all, or they charge rates that would make a mobster flinch, which is to say, you either get a hobbyist that does it because he loves doing it, or charges what it's actually worth based on all the other paying things that could be going on while he or she is mucking about with the customer's gun.

I understand the concept of Craftsmanship just fine, but I also understand that being in Business as a Gunsmith, means having to eat with enough money left at that end of the day to be able to turn the lights on the next day. Fixing guns is a very small part of the picture. Time management, and no small portion of business acumen are a requirements, not options!

Figure out in a few minutes, if you can make a pair of scope rings at a rate that allows you to sell them for the same as Leupold or Nightforce can. It makes no economic sense to waste ones time at it, if the parts are available. It makes less sense to spend hours working on someone else's hobby, and not charging them adequately for those hours.

Further to all that, where did the idea that all Gunsmiths are machinists at heart come from? Really? More Poo. Running a lathe or mill (if they even have one) is simply another of MANY skills that are required to be a functional Gunsmith. More hobbyist fantasy hooey!

Cheers
Trev

 

[SND]

Most people today in all trades and professions are specialized in the few things they have the tools and skills/knowledge for, just gotta find the person specialized in what you need.
Just like not all machinist can do the same type of work, efficiently.

 

[blargon]

I do what I can on my own stuff, but had the common sense to train for a field that pays enough to afford a real gunsmith...

 

[lejarretnoir]

Good points here. I don't take on all work. It's impossible to be good at everything.
Find what you do best and enjoy it. Doesn't mean you'll pay the bills or run a business.