Is the private sale of ammo legal?

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You aren't required to see a PAL to sell ammo or a non restricted. If you sell ammo to someone with a PAL without seeing it, you are not breaking any laws.

Stop lying, Shawn.

Prove It

Show us anything that says that. Oh wait you cant because your wrong and cant accept it.

There is more than enough sections of the CC saying we do and yet you claim its not true and provide no proof. Willful ignorance of the law is no defense.

Your the only one lying, you, I and everyone else knows it. And yet you continue to tell new people to break the law to satisfy what ever agenda you have.

Shawn
 
Shawn, you can't prove that selling ammo to a PAL holder without visually seeing the PAL is illegal, because there is no law that actually states this.
 
"Hello, do you have a PAL?"

"Yes"

"Ok. Here is your ammo, have a nice day"

Since nothing in your long list of quotes indicates any burden of proof falling to the transferrer (is that even a word?) I am inclined to think the verbal answer of "yes" is proof enough, no?
 
Shawn, you can't prove that selling ammo to a PAL holder without visually seeing the PAL is illegal, because there is no law that actually states this.

Sure :rolleyes:

"Hello, do you have a PAL?"

"Yes"

"Ok. Here is your ammo, have a nice day"

Since nothing in your long list of quotes indicates any burden of proof falling to the transferrer (is that even a word?) I am inclined to think the verbal answer of "yes" is proof enough, no?

The legal default state of a person is unlicensed, simply saying you have a license doesn't make it so. Read the law it states you may only transfer the ammo if the person you are transferring to has a license, if you don't see it, then by standard of a reasonable person they are unlicensed.

It doesn't say a person may transfer if they think the person has a license.

Authorization to transfer ammunition to individuals
25.*A person may transfer ammunition that is not prohibited ammunition to an individual only if the individual
(a)*until January 1, 2001, holds a licence authorizing him or her to possess firearms or a prescribed document; or
(b)*after January 1, 2001, holds a licence authorizing him or her to possess firearms.

Do you think your theory would work if you went to a gun store to buy ammo?
How about at a check stop, when the police ask for your drivers license?

Do you think that all the laws where you are required to show proof it is written to say" you must see the license"? Sorry it doesn't work that way.

Shawn
 
Oh my lord.... Shawn is correct, not even a doubt, not even debateable.


To ANYONE READING THIS THREAD THAT IS NEW OR NEEDING THE INFORMATION ASKED! Pay attention to Shawn's posts if you wish to make sure you are abiding by Canadian law and do not want the possibility of ending up in prison and/or being fined.


Regards, Bill
 
A few years ago I was selling rifle ammo on the EE. The buyer gave me his PAL. I called CFC to confirm the Pal was valid. They refused to do so, citing privacy laws.
 
What is the penalty for transferring ammunition to a person with a PAL without visually seeing their PAL? Hmmm...Nothing. No law was broken.

Really? How do you know if no law was broken?

You don't, because you didn't see a PAL. If want to sell to anyone that asks that is your business, just stop trying to convince people that because you break the law it is legal.

A few years ago I was selling rifle ammo on the EE. The buyer gave me his PAL. I called CFC to confirm the Pal was valid. They refused to do so, citing privacy laws.

The law has changed you can now verify with the CFC if a PAL is valid, if you so choose.

Shawn
 
Really? How do you know if no law was broken?

You don't, because you didn't see a PAL. If want to sell to anyone that asks that is your business, just stop trying to convince people that because you break the law it is legal.

Shawn

Shawn, stop lying.

You know as well as I do that there is no penalty for selling ammunition to a person with a PAL without visually checking the PAL.

Stop trying to pretend that a person is breaking the law when they are not.
 
You know as well as I do that there is no penalty for selling ammunition to a person with a PAL without visually checking the PAL.

I normally avoid participating in threads like these and merely read them for the entertainment value but this is frustrating.
you guys are arguing the same point and calling each other liars in the process.

Is it illegal to sell to someone with a PAL, without visually checking the PAL for each transaction? Not as long as you know the buyer has a PAL.

How do you know if the buyer has a PAL? you verify it buy visually checking!!!!

It is illegal to sell to someone who does not hold a PAL.
How you verify that person has a PAL is up to you.
 
Shawn, stop lying.

You know as well as I do that there is no penalty for selling ammunition to a person with a PAL without visually checking the PAL.

Stop trying to pretend that a person is breaking the law when they are not.

Its already been posted, if you choose to ignore it that's on you.

The only one in this thread trying to get people to break the law is you. And since you forgot I will post it up:

Don't overly complicate stuff. Just sell it to someone you have no reason to believe DOESN"T have a PAL.

So educate us. Where exactly does it say I can sell ammo to people I believe have a PAL?

Shawn
 
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Its already been posted, if you choose to ignore it that's on you.

The only one in this thread trying to get people to break the law is you. And since you forgot I will post it up:

So educate us. Where exactly does it say I can sell ammo to people I believe have a PAL?


Where has it been posted that it is illegal to sell ammo to someone that possess a PAL without visually seeing a PAL?

You are good copy and pasting laws, so surely you can find this law if it exists?

You are trying to make up laws that don't exist.
 
Hello everyone,

A small foray out of the legalese forum, I heard there was a legal debate going on in these parts.

So first things first, the Firearms Act:

Authorization to transfer ammunition to individuals

25. A person may transfer ammunition that is not prohibited ammunition to an individual only if the individual

(a) until January 1, 2001, holds a licence authorizing him or her to possess firearms or a prescribed document;

or

(b) after January 1, 2001, holds a licence authorizing him or her to possess firearms.

So the way you need to understand this is that a person can only sell ammunition to a person that has a PAL. That's very clear. The interpretation that you need only not have any reason to believe the person does not hold a PAL is incorrect. Let's look at the provision in question:

Authorization to transfer firearms neither prohibited nor restricted

23. A person may transfer a firearm that is neither a prohibited firearm nor a restricted firearm if, at the time of the transfer,

(a) the transferee holds a licence authorizing the transferee to acquire and possess that kind of firearm; and

(b) the transferor has no reason to believe that the transferee is not authorized to acquire and possess that kind of firearm.

1995, c. 39, s. 23;2003, c. 8, s. 17;2012, c. 6, s. 11.

The "and" at the end of sub-paragraph (a) is key. At the time of the transfer, both (a) and (b) need to be met. It's not either or. So (a) makes it so that the person receiving the firearm has a PAL. Furthermore, through (b), the person selling the firearm must have no reason to belive the person is not authorized to acquire and possess that kind of firearm.

To fulfill (a) when dealing with a stranger, the only way to satisfy the criteria is by seeing it. To fulfill (b), you must not have any reason to believe the person would have, let's say, a Court prohibition not to possess firearms for the time being.

This of course only applies to the transfer of non-restricted firearms.You still need to verify if a person has a PAL. For added safety, there is a mechanism that allows you to verify it with the CFC through the provision of 23.1. But it's not mandatory.

But that's besdies the point, because it doesn't apply to section 25 that talks about the transfer of ammunition. So that point is moot.

A person selling ammunition must satisfy 25 of the Firearms Act. So the person making the sale must be satisfied that the person being sold to has a PAL. There are many ways to that end. You could physically see it, see a photocopy of it, a scanned version of it, a Facetime of it, etc. Possibilities are pretty much endless.

Some have suggested that there is no punishment for possessing ammunition without a PAL. That is true.

But it is a regulated crime to sell ammunition to a person that is not licenced. Criminal code:

Transfer without authority

101. (1) Every person commits an offence who transfers a firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, any ammunition or any prohibited ammunition to any person otherwise than under the authority of the Firearms Act or any other Act of Parliament or any regulations made under an Act of Parliament.

Punishment

(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1)

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 101;1991, c. 40, s. 13;1995, c. 39, s. 139.

As you saw, there is even a distinction between "any ammunition" and "prohibited ammunition". Which means that all ammunition is covered by this provision.

So yes, it is a crime. It's even a graver crime if you do that sale KNOWING that person does not have a PAL. If that's the case, the punishment under 99 is then a minimum of three years.

Personally, I find it kind of steep to risk on an erroneous interpretation of the law that I don't need to check or see the PAL of the person who I'm selling ammunition to.

Hope this helps.
 
It's not a crime to do such a sale to a PAL owner without seeing it. I would think in a scenario where you have first hand and contemporary knowledge that the person you're dealing with has a PAL you're good to go to say that you acted as a reasonable person. For example, I know for a fact my dad has a PAL. I don't need to check it. He's also my dad. I know him well. I've seen it in the past.

The point I was driving is this: you must be satisfied that the person you're dealing with indeed does have a PAL. There are many ways for a reasonable person to be satisfied of this. You could ask to see it, verify it, etc. You could also be satisfied by past first hand contemporary PAL verifications.

As in everything, use your best judgment.

The interpretation that checking a PAL is never required is erroneous. That's also a point you should all remember.
 
The point I was driving is this: you must be satisfied that the person you're dealing with indeed does have a PAL. There are many ways for a reasonable person to be satisfied of this. You could ask to see it, verify it, etc. You could also be satisfied by past first hand contemporary PAL verifications.

Exactly. There are many ways to satisfy yourself that the person you are dealing with is legitimate. We don't need to over complicate things.
 
Oh, I almost forgot. There could be provincial laws and municipal by-laws that further regulate the sale of ammunition.
 
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