Is The Stated MOA Of Your Rifle Like A Good Fish Story?

I know my guns are capable of sub M.O.A groups but I am not.I have had others shoot mine and shoot 1/2 to 3/4" groups and then I shoot 1 1/2 to 2" groups.I try to pratice as much as I can but my rifles are for hunting and if I can put 5 shots in 2" thats a dead deer/moose and thats I all I care about.
 
Whats really impressive about the general communities focus on MOA is how its affected a lot of older rifles. A guys hunting rifle that was 2MOA 20 years ago, was suddenly 1MOA 10 years ago and is likely Sub-MOA today. With improved materials and manufacturing newer guns are getting more and more accurate out of the box but I guess a rising tide must lift all boats in the accuracy department. A lot of those older rifles have aged like fine wine, getting better and better as time goes on. ;)
 
sedgr said:
Whats really impressive about the general communities focus on MOA is how its affected a lot of older rifles. A guys hunting rifle that was 2MOA 20 years ago, was suddenly 1MOA 10 years ago and is likely Sub-MOA today. With improved materials and manufacturing newer guns are getting more and more accurate out of the box but I guess a rising tide must lift all boats in the accuracy department. A lot of those older rifles have aged like fine wine, getting better and better as time goes on. ;)
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It's not that the firearm gets better as time goes on, it's powder, bullets, primer brass among other tech knowledge. For handloaders, the sky is the limit to develope an exceptional precision made cartridge. I know of some target shooters who are nailing 1/4 sub-moa at 300 yards; mind you it's not a hunting rig, but the tech knowledge can be used with a hunting rifle.

Ammunition manufactures are pumping out great ammo this days that are custom made, and in return standard firearms are achieving MOA and better at the range and dead flop kills in the field.:D
 
I agree track about the handloading.After my last post on this topic I decided to try some different primers and seat my bullet .010 longer for my .243.I went out and tested and with my old load 5 shot group was 1.943".New load 5 shot was 1.392".I know its only a half inch but I was pretty happy.I am fairly new to reloading and havent tested alot of different loads yet but I guess its time after that.
 
colonel3006 said:
I agree track about the handloading.After my last post on this topic I decided to try some different primers and seat my bullet .010 longer for my .243.I went out and tested and with my old load 5 shot group was 1.943".New load 5 shot was 1.392".I know its only a half inch but I was pretty happy.I am fairly new to reloading and havent tested alot of different loads yet but I guess its time after that.
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One group like that means almost nothing.
You would require several five shot groups, preferrably loaded by someone else, so you didn't know which ammunition you were shooting.
 
colonel3006 said:
I agree track about the handloading.After my last post on this topic I decided to try some different primers and seat my bullet .010 longer for my .243.I went out and tested and with my old load 5 shot group was 1.943".New load 5 shot was 1.392".I know its only a half inch but I was pretty happy.I am fairly new to reloading and havent tested alot of different loads yet but I guess its time after that.
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There are the basic fundamentals of reloading and best to stick with them. The KISS procedure is what I practice. Changing primers is not generally noted to be an accuracy enhancer, but to reduce the deviation spread of velocity. Seating bullets at greater lengths will generally enhance accuracy. (closer to land and groves)

Reload using the same brass, bullets and primers, however; load using different powders with various powder charges. Check reloading manuals and see what they recommend for accuracy powder loads. The 243 Winchester is a very accurate cartridge and you should achieve better accuracy than 1.392.
 
Like I said before I am not a great target shooter and never have been.I know my guns shoot better than I do,and others shooting my rifles have proved that to me.That is the main reason I recently got into reloading,producing more accurate rounds and so I could pratice more.I havent experimented with alot of different powders yet but am planning on trying different loads this winter to see what works best for my rifles.As I said before as long as I know that my rifles are acurate enough to make clean kills on the game I am hunting at my comfortable shooting distances,that is my main concern.
 
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I read an artical in Guns N Ammo that was testing to see if the group ratings on factory rifles were right or not. They even tested some rifles that made no claims. They tested Sako A7, Tikka T3, Savage Axis, Savage 110, CZ 550, and a Thompson Centerfire Icon. The person shooting the rifles was a US army sniper so none of us will ever duplicate these results. Both the A7 and Tikka T3 shot slightly better than there advertized 3 shot moa and 5 shot moa. The CZ 550 who they don't make any claim to it being accurate, shot 1/2 moa and the TC Icon shot slightly better. The Savage Axis and Savage 110 both shot 3/4moa and the neat thing was, they suffered the least from repeated firing. A 10 shot group from the savage axis was 1 3/4moa. Thats pretty impressive well the CZ 550 suffered the most with almost a 2moa 10 shot group. Still pretty impressive but you're not going to be making 10 shot groups well hunting, you're going to make 1 good shot, be ready for a follow up shot, and most likely well standing.

cam1936 said:
Also, people should be shooting 5 round groups, not 3. If your shots walk when the barrel heats up than wait for it to cool before shooting.
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Actually, since in hunting, the first shot is the most important shot, I do one shot groups and consistantly see if i'm hitting where i'm aiming. This is also a way cheaper way to practice.
 
NoBark said:
Actually, since in hunting, the first shot is the most important shot, I do one shot groups and consistantly see if i'm hitting where i'm aiming. This is also a way cheaper way to practice.
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My main hunting rifles are single shots so I can relate to what you are saying. :D
 
NoBark said:
Actually, since in hunting, the first shot is the most important shot, I do one shot groups and consistantly see if i'm hitting where i'm aiming. This is also a way cheaper way to practice.
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Of course your first shot is the most important. It should be the only shot. What I mean by that is if you shoot 5 cold bore shots you can get a better feeling of the precision of your rifle. How accurate is that first shot going to be?

I have a target set up permanently at 206 yards at my parent's place. Before hunting season I'll shot 1 round at that target everytime I'm out there. After a few times I'll have a group entirely made up of truly cold bore shots, just like when you are hunting.

I'll still stick to my guns and say anything less than a 5 round group is pointless; however how you shoot that 5 round group depends on the rifle. If a hunting rig you want to see that 5 round group having been shot with a cold bore every shot. For a service rifle I shoot with a hot bore, as my barrel gets quite hot quickly in a match. For a varmint rig I shoot starting from a cold barrel and let it get warm. See what I'm getting at?

Calum said:
My main hunting rifles are single shots so I can relate to what you are saying. :D
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I also shoot 5 round groups out of my No. 1. I just do it with a cold barrel for every shot, even if it takes days.
 
When I take out the rifles to sight them in, I set up at least three targets, for three rifles. I fire one round out of each at it's intended paper, then take a break fiddling with something else until all is cold, then repeat. Once I have 5 rounds from each, after many hours, I calculate the group.

I have always done this, as I hunt with my rifles, not paper punch for fun.
 
So is it a half moa rifle if all your groups are under that, or the average of your groups is under that.

I lean toward the latter as a sensible definition, but still thinking on it.
 
it seems stupid to me to wait every time for a cold bore.

yes the first shot is the most important, HOWEVER following shots are whats in important.. in hunting situtions you will take the presented shots..

ex

coyote one is shot and down, unknown to you a 'yote was sitting in the brush island in the middle of the field and steps out at 300 yards and pauses to determined which way danger lies, NOW your barrel is slightly warmed, you will NEVER wait for your barrel to cool.

so in my opinion the accuracy of a rifle is determined by the 5 shot group allowing for heating and cooling thus reveling many varibles that are otherwise hidden.

yes my spelling is awful so don't bother reminding me
 
H4831 said:
Couldn't have said it better myself!
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What species of fish do you smell from this one..............I'm sure you will come up with something. Five shot groups.
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