Is the XD45 single action or not?

23/4there said:
So after all of this...... the website list the XD45 at DAO. So does SA actually make a DAO model? or is this website out to lunch?

http://www.xdpistols.com/item.aspx?PID=59386

Just when I thought we had a clear concise answer on this! Here we go again... Is it safe to carry loaded? one the chamber) the ANSWER is YES! Theres several police agencies in the USA that carry them.
 
Yeah it is. The trigger allows the slanted "sear" to pivot downward, and the striker can then move past it.
No it's not; the striker is actually 72% pre cocked it might seam like 100% but it isn't!...I have the gun and played with it; the sear definitely moves back (before moving down) when you pull the trigger, not much (only 28%) but it does... On the Styer website they call it "Reset Action System (Double Action with Direct Trigger)"

This has been discussed on the Steyr forum feel free to lock it up if you don’t believe me...
 
IM_Lugger said:
No it's not; the striker is actually 72% pre cocked it might seam like 100% but it isn't!...I have the gun and played with it; the sear definitely moves back (before moving down) when you pull the trigger, not much (only 28%) but it does... On the Styer website they call it "Reset Action System (Double Action with Direct Trigger)"

This has been discussed on the Steyr forum feel free to lock it up if you don’t believe me...

I'd have to see it again. I'm very impressed by the gun, so I took one apart at Reliable Gun and Tackle in Vancouver. I feel pretty confident about what I saw, but never say never. I took a look at the forum you mentioned (Steyrclub?), and saw a couple fo discussions about this... and I've got to say, it didn't change my mind. "Reset action trigger" is just marketing drivel, not an actual descriptive name. Could mean anything.

Remember, man, I like the gun!

I think Steyr really shot themselves in the foot with those goofy sights, though. I bet 80% of their potential market decided to hold off because of them. I'm one of those guys.
 
Going back to the whole issue of glock and XD being SA, DA, or something else, I guess the one answer which everyone can agree on is "it depends on who's asking and in what context"... ;)
 
I think Steyr really shot themselves in the foot with those goofy sights, though. I bet 80% of their potential market decided to hold off because of them. I'm one of those guys.
I actually like the sights, it’s one of the things that attracted me to the gun…something different. The big front sight is very quick to pick up on the target. But you can get the sights replaced, with 3dot if you want…

Slavex you mentioned once before you tried out/had an older M model …new M-A1 models have textured grip, no safety and better egronomics plus they look better...
 
omen said:
Going back to the whole issue of glock and XD being SA, DA, or something else, I guess the one answer which everyone can agree on is "it depends on who's asking and in what context"... ;)


Um no. The striker is fully cocked, all the hammer does is release it. Single action. In a glock the striker is partially cocked by the trigger travel, double action, not full double action but double action (cocking and releasing, two actions) none the less. There are only two options (that'll bring em out of the wood work, someone will have to prove that wrong:D ).
 
For me, if you don't have restrike capability, it isn't Double action.
All striker fired weapons have a similar feel and capability.
There should be a new category for them as they do not fall in the traditional "Single action" or "double action" when they are stock.
Technically single action but a longer and heavier trigger than traditional Single actions. Softer trigger than most double actions and no retsrike.
 
I think my question has been misunderstood. I believe everyone when they say the xd is single action. But the website I provided has them listed as Double action only. DAO is used for some police departments. Does SA make a DIFFERENT models that are DAO?
 
dinsdale said:
For me, if you don't have restrike capability, it isn't Double action.
All striker fired weapons have a similar feel and capability.
There should be a new category for them as they do not fall in the traditional "Single action" or "double action" when they are stock.
Technically single action but a longer and heavier trigger than traditional Single actions. Softer trigger than most double actions and no retsrike.


restrike ability has nothing to do with it, though I don't see the point of a DA gun without it. If the trigger does 1 thing (fire the gun) its a single action, if it does two things (#### the hammer or striker , then fire the gun) its a double action. I understand what your saying about the glock, and perhaps we're splitting hairs hear
 
the S&W 5946 that the RCMP use doesn't have a second strike ability either, so does that mean it's not a DAO gun?
 
In the traditionional sense,if it doesn't completely #### and fire the trigger, no it isn't a DAO trigger it's a Pre-set trigger.
The slide action pre-sets the trigger.

Guns with pre-set triggers (including the XD) should all be in category of their own. They all operate similarly and with the same feel.

Can semantics get you killed?
American Handgunner, Nov-Dec, 2002 by Massad Ayoob
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What's "single action," "double action," or "double action only"? Accepted gun lingo, like Webster's dictionary, often allows multiple meanings for the same term. The resulting confusion can be farther-reaching than you'd think. Indeed, can blind, knee-jerk adherence to dated terminology stop the forward learning curve? You bet.

It's understood a single action handgun will operate in only one way: its hammer must be cocked to fire, and that cocking action normally makes for a fairly light, short triggerpull for every shot. Defining a double action handgun gets a little trickier, given the complexity of both gun design and the English language. There can be more than one definition, and which is the "first" definition is not necessarily the "preferred" definition.

* "Double Action" (abbreviation: "DA"), First Definition: A trigger mechanism in which a single, usually relatively long and heavy, pull of the trigger both cocks and fires the gun. Synonym: "trigger-cocking."
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* "Double Action," Second Definition: A trigger mechanism that allows two different methods of activating or firing the gun.
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But what about a "hammerless" revolver like S&W's Centennial series, or the Taurus CIA? What about the M9's sister gun, the Beretta 92D, or a Kahr 9mm or .40 pistol? All of these can be fired only with a single kind of trigger stroke -- the long and heavy one that cocks and then discharges the gun.

This latter class of handguns is generally called "Double Action Only," or DAO for short. This common usage indicates the world of the shooter currently takes the first definition above, trigger-cocking followed by trigger-firing in the same stroke of movement, as the controlling definition of double action. How can the second definition of double action (i.e., "two ways to shoot it") be applied to a gun which can only be fired one way?

If we call such a gun not only double action, but double action only, the common usage of the term shows acceptance of the first definition at the expense of the second. If "double action" means two different action types, then "double action only" is a contradiction in terms. It's as oxymoronic as saying "this one single two things."

The two explanations of the term "double action" presented above might be called mechanical definitions. As we look at how guns are used, as opposed to how they are designed -- as we seek a bio-mechanical definition, if you will -- we can come up with yet a third definition.

* "Double Action," Third Definition: Requiring a long, relatively heavy pull of the trigger to fire the gun.

This is a definition better suited to a shooter or firearms instructor than to a gun designer, but it gets the point across. This third, bio-mechanical definition is also in lockstep with the first of the mechanical definitions listed above. It's not incongruent with what might be the most succinct description of this new breed of handguns: "self-decocking," a term coined by my old friend and master firearms instructor John Farnam.

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Why It Matters

Case in point: the Springfield Armory XD (X-treme Duty) pistol. Springfield's advertising says, "The polymer-framed XD pistol's revolutionary design offers single action trigger feel in a double action pistol." So, which is it, single or double action? And why does it matter?

We'll get back to the "which" question shortly. Why it matters, for one thing, is that IDPA, the increasingly popular International Defensive Pistol Association, will only allow it, for now, in the Enhanced Service Pistol (ESP) division along with single action medium caliber pistols like the 1911 or the Browning Hi-Power. Springfield Armory wants it to be included in the much more popular Stock Service Pistol class alongside conventional double action autos and Glocks.

The concern with "gun definitions" goes far beyond pistol competition, a fact we've seen play out in court many times. It is a given that a cocked handgun in single action mode can go off much more easily than one in DA mode. This has been known to lead to unintentional shootings, sometimes with tragic consequences.
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Of late, even Springfield Armory has backed off on the double action definition of the XD, though it still appears in their ads. In a position paper sent to the IDPA Board of Directors and dated May 13, 2002, Springfield's Dennis Reese wrote, "The XD pistol is neither a true single action, nor a true double action pistol. As the Clock pistol has been described as 'safe action,' the Springfield XD pistol has an Ultra Safety Assurance (USA) action trigger system. Enclosed please find a report prepared by Tioga Engineering on this issue. Please note that neither Glock, nor we, claim that the trigger is either single or double action."

Springfield had commissioned engineer Charles Fagg of Tioga to analyze the matter. Fagg's report of April 18, 2002, includes the following statements. "Confusion exists as to the proper classification of the firing mechanisms of the Glock 17 and the Springfield Armory XD pistols. This confusion stems from the ambiguity of the terms, 'single action' and 'double action'... The terms 'single action' and 'double action' are archaic and have little applicability to many, respected, semiautomatic pistols."

The word "archaic" is significant. Fagg sums up the matter as follows: "CONCLUSIONS: 1. Neither the Springfield Armory XD nor the Glock 17 qualifies as a single action pistol. 2. Neither the Springfield Armory XD nor the Glock 17 qualifies as a double action pistol. 3. Both the Springfield Armory XD and the Glock 17 will fire if the firing pin is released from the ready, or carry, position unless it is intercepted by the automatic firing-pin block. 4. Both the Springfield Armory XD and the Glock 17 are designed with an array of safety features that, if maintained properly, virtually preclude a discharge unless the trigger is pulled or a chambered round cooks off in a fire. 5. From a safety standpoint, there is no basis upon which to choose between the trigger mechanisms of the Springfield Armory XD and the Glock 17 if the force required to pull their respective triggers is similar."

From a perspective of pure mechanical engineering, there is one subtle difference between these two striker-fired auto pistols. The Croatian pistol's striker is at, or very nearly at, its most fully retracted point when the mechanism is at rest but ready to fire. The Austrian pistol is so designed the striker is retracted considerably more by the action of pulling the trigger, before the gun fires. An NYPD manual for the Clock 19 described the pistol as perpetually "half cocked." To gun geeks quibbling about details, this could make a difference.

However, in the practical world, what we are looking for is that third definition of "double action" listed earlier: Simply put, how long and how hard is the trigger pull before the gun discharges? It's on this basis that IDPA initially segregated handgun types into four categories. This was done to level the playing field between those competitors who had the guns that were easiest to shoot quickly and accurately, and those which were progressively more difficult. IDPA is, after all, a skill-testing venue and not a forum of amateur handgun designers.

On IDPA's tough 90-round Classifier course, you can make Master with a time of 102.35 seconds in Stock Service Revolver. This generous time is allowed for the double action revolver's longer trigger throw (and concomitantly longer return between shots), as well as its typically longer down time in reloading. With a double action-type Stock Service Pistol, 98.82 seconds is required for a Master's card.

A 1911 .45 auto in Custom Defense Pistol division is no faster to reload, but with it's shorter trigger stroke for every shot it's generally considered faster to shoot accurately, upping the ante to 91.76 seconds if you want to earn Master status. You can shoot an identical single action auto in a smaller caliber such as 9mm, .38 Super, or .40 S&W for Enhanced Service Pistol, and the speed advantage of lighter recoil brings Master time down to 89.41 seconds. Clearly, IDPA's intent is to cut some slack to the shooter with the handgun that is more difficult to shoot at speed.

At this writing, IDPA limits the XD to ESP division because they consider its design to be pre-cocked, and thus single action, as distinct from the Glock which is only partially cocked with its mechanism at rest. However, consider how its trigger pull compares in actual shooting, from a user's perspective, to other guns in ESP class.

The HK P7, once allowed in SSP, is now restricted to the ESP division. This is because while it is not cocked until it is squeezed, once it is cocked it has a trigger pull that is short and crisp and light like a target pistol's. The switch of the P7 to ESP is not a move I could argue with in good conscience. That gun is at home in the Enhanced class with light and short trigger pull guns like the 1911 in .40 or .38 Super, or the single action S&W 952 target pistol in 9mm.

But consider the trigger "feel" of the XD. As I wrote for Guns in June 2002, "The trigger stroke is sweet. A long, easy pressure comes to a firmer resistance, and then suddenly releases. It is conducive to a surprise trigger break once you've made the decision to fire, and that always helps good shooting."

If you think about it, that description is also applicable to our new generation of unquestionably "double action only" auto pistols that are widely accepted in law enforcement, concealed carry and IDPA Stock Service Pistol division. The Smith & Wesson Model 5946, as adopted by departments from the Cincinnati Police to the Royal Candadian Mounted Police; the Kahr K9 that any NYPD officer is authorized to carry off duty; and the Para-Ordnance LDA as issued by the North Attleboro, Mass. Police Department, they all fall into this category.

But the single handgun trigger system to which the XD's feel is most analogous is that of the ubiquitous Glock. The Glock, of course, is the single most popular pistol in TDPA Stock Service Pistol shooting, just as it is the single most popular pistol in American law enforcement right now.

This, in the end, strikes me as the deciding factor. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Mechanical definitions aside, the bio-mechanical approach to how it feels to manipulate the trigger, and how difficult that is, should be the deciding factor in the subjective rules that attempt to level the playing field for an objective skill test.

This is why, if I had a vote in the matter, I would vote to put the Springfield Armory XD in the same IDPA Stock Service Pistol class as the Glock. An alternative would be to put both in a separate division of competition with other pistols that are neither truly single, nor truly double action under the old paradigms.

When jets first appeared, some old timers asked where the propellers went. When told the jet didn't need a propeller, they still wanted to know where the prop went. They simply couldn't understand and shorted-out when met with new technology. Sometimes, something is simply new and old descriptions no longer fit.

Yet, we step onto thin ice when we try to redefine old terminology long in use. At the same time, Charles Fagg may be right. "Single action" and "double action" may indeed be archaic terms when we seek to define new designs that don't fit old standards of terminology that didn't allow for describing these modern concepts. Don't let adherence to out-dated thinking get in the way of technological progress.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_160_26/ai_92585765/pg_1
 
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gah! so now we have springfields pet engineer trying to justify why they should be allowed to play in the more populus and prestigous class. Fact still remains, all the trigger on the XD does is release the striker. On the glock it finishes the cocking of the striker and then releases it,
 
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