Cocked&Locked
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S. Ontario
yep, shot way worse then this, just cleaned it up first. NP
Is This ammo safe?
- Thread starter gerard488
- Start date
yep, shot way worse then this, just cleaned it up first. NP
Canadian_Zuk
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Pickering, Ontario
I see tax dollars wasted every day
John, you and I have different backgrounds and experience in the field. The ammo the OP posted pics of would be considered almost pristine in some places. Ammo looking like that and much worse, including steel cased stuff gets buried or squirreled away in different conflict areas of the world regularly. Often it is hidden under pretty harsh conditions, along with the firearms it's intended for. For the most part, it goes bang and is accurate enough for its intended purpose. Like you, I like to see the firearm and everything that is shot through it in excellent condition. Beggars can't be choosers though.
Depending on the military the troopie often have the option to utilize pristine condition munitions or equipment. I'm willing to bet that you saw a lot of that in your travels. On the Negra River in Brazil I saw FN FALs being fed and digesting ammo completely coated in Verdigris. A lot of the ammo I saw used in Africa, including the steel cased stuff was so rusty, along with the rifles, I wouldn't have believed they would even fire, let alone feed and eject reliably. In all honesty, they didn't but those stoppages were extremely rare and easily resolved.
You my friend were spoiled as far as the equipment and weapons you were issued. I'm jealous. Good for you though and for the Canadian military supplying the best they can to the troops both on and off the field.
Depending on the military the troopie often have the option to utilize pristine condition munitions or equipment. I'm willing to bet that you saw a lot of that in your travels. On the Negra River in Brazil I saw FN FALs being fed and digesting ammo completely coated in Verdigris. A lot of the ammo I saw used in Africa, including the steel cased stuff was so rusty, along with the rifles, I wouldn't have believed they would even fire, let alone feed and eject reliably. In all honesty, they didn't but those stoppages were extremely rare and easily resolved.
You my friend were spoiled as far as the equipment and weapons you were issued. I'm jealous. Good for you though and for the Canadian military supplying the best they can to the troops both on and off the field.
- Location
- Banana Republik of Kebekistan
PROCEDURE & Executive summary of previous posts
1. Clean surface oxidation to confirm its only surface. This will also ensure smooth chambering and good surface contact during expansion.
2. If they clean up satisfactorily, shoot them at 100 yards and post groups here. We all care to know!
3. Due to possible performance/reliability issues caused by humidity contamination, definitely not for hunting of zeroing a scope.
4. If in doubt or not comfy with them, just pull bullets and fertilize wifey's favorite flowers. Post pics of flowers before and 1 month later.
5. Have a beer before, between and after each steps.
6. Find more ammo and repeat steps.
Your welcome.
1. Clean surface oxidation to confirm its only surface. This will also ensure smooth chambering and good surface contact during expansion.
2. If they clean up satisfactorily, shoot them at 100 yards and post groups here. We all care to know!
3. Due to possible performance/reliability issues caused by humidity contamination, definitely not for hunting of zeroing a scope.
4. If in doubt or not comfy with them, just pull bullets and fertilize wifey's favorite flowers. Post pics of flowers before and 1 month later.
5. Have a beer before, between and after each steps.
6. Find more ammo and repeat steps.
Your welcome.
emtjakster
New member
- Location
- Montreal, Quebec
I recently came into possession of old military issued ball ammo with some corrosion issues also. Considering the amount I received I thought it would be worthwhile to see if they where still good to go. First step was research, I found this great post on .303 ammo, it might be posted already somewhere here but here is the link http://carteach0.########.ca/2008/11/corroded-ammunition-thoughts-and-images.html From there I looked over each of the rounds and separated the ones I thought where suspect. I then hand cleaned each round with brasso using my fingers to rub the brass. This gave me an idea of which cases maybe pitted with corrosion, I was also looking for any primers that maybe bulging. Every one of them was smooth, stained with discolouration but nothing that really made me worried. I then took some of the suspect ones apart to see how the powder was and even on the most corroded one the powder was good and dry and lite up easily.
Disassembled round
Nice dry powder
Here is a few photos of the worst primers
And here is the worst case
Yesterday I went to the range with the express purpose of shooting some of this older ammo. I brought out the worst of the batch and fired 15 rounds. Still have another 130+ rounds dating back to the 40's
So armed with my 4 mk1 British Lee Enfield, a bunch of old and new Remington rounds and a bottle of Windex I hit the range.
Out of the 15 rounds I had:
2 round that had a small delay, enough to hear the click, hear a fizz and feel a bang. Rather than everything happening at the same time
2 rounds that where complete duds, good primer hit but nothing.
All other round fired fine
I did have 1 split case
And that one came from my oldest round in the batch
They seemed to kick a little more than the normal Remington that I used afterwards but overall I felt safe firing older ammo.
That being said I would go with some of the other comments, if YOU feel it's not safe, then do not fire them.
If you only have a few rounds then dispose of them, why risk it
And yes I highly suggest to bring a bottle of Windex if you are to shoot these older rounds. After firing soak everything and then clean like there is no tomorrow
Disassembled round
Nice dry powder
Here is a few photos of the worst primers
And here is the worst case
Yesterday I went to the range with the express purpose of shooting some of this older ammo. I brought out the worst of the batch and fired 15 rounds. Still have another 130+ rounds dating back to the 40's
So armed with my 4 mk1 British Lee Enfield, a bunch of old and new Remington rounds and a bottle of Windex I hit the range.
Out of the 15 rounds I had:
2 round that had a small delay, enough to hear the click, hear a fizz and feel a bang. Rather than everything happening at the same time
2 rounds that where complete duds, good primer hit but nothing.
All other round fired fine
I did have 1 split case
And that one came from my oldest round in the batch
They seemed to kick a little more than the normal Remington that I used afterwards but overall I felt safe firing older ammo.
That being said I would go with some of the other comments, if YOU feel it's not safe, then do not fire them.
If you only have a few rounds then dispose of them, why risk it
And yes I highly suggest to bring a bottle of Windex if you are to shoot these older rounds. After firing soak everything and then clean like there is no tomorrow
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All ammo starts out good. After that its a function of proper packaging, storage and technical control to keep it that way. Ammo is tracked by lot number so that defects can be reported and followed up on. Properly packaged and stored small arms ammo can last almost indefinitely. The big perils are loss of packaging integrity, water and extremes of climate and the absence of proper technical surveillance and control.
That may be under controlled circumstances but once it gets out to the field, captured, hidden, stored in outhouses or honey pits and even down in wells, things change and desperate circumstances force the use of the ammo and even weapons stored in such a manner. Surprisingly and a kudo to the manufacturers the ammo goes bang and the weapons function. I've seen weapons and ammo used in very effective ways that never should have functioned but they did. I've seen AKs buried in honey pits pulled out after being there for years, looking like rotten wood and bars of rust that barely had the outline of the rifle get thrown into a tub of diesel and soaked overnight then function reliably by the next afternoon. The only thing that gave trouble were the magazines. In 1969 I saw several boxes of stick grenades that were immersed in the bottom of a slough for who knows how long. The boxes were well soaked in preservative but the screws/hinges/latches were crumbling from rust. The grenades were for the most part fine. Some of them had rotted/rusted away but most of them still had legible writing on them and worked well when called upon to do so. That was over 45 years ago. Any of that stuff now, would become part of the sediment it was buried in.
Presently I have several hundred rounds of IVI 7.62x51 that is covered in Verdigris. It came that way out of sealed vinyl bandoliers. I took 20 randomly picked rounds last week and it all not only worked but shot quite consistently. This lot of ammo is going into the stainless pin/vinegar and water cleaner then it's going to get a nice Carnuba wax coating to keep it relatively clean.
BeaverMeat
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nanaimo, B.C.
Pull the bullet and chuck it, empty out the powder, fire the primers and chuck the cases, and light the powder for fun!
Gerald, your experience in nasty places was sure off the beaten path.
Conventional armies tend to expend ammo pretty quickly once it has been issued so there's not too many possibilities of it laying around to deteriorate. For example, an infantry battalion will go into action with a 3 day basic load of ammo, one day on the weapon, and 2 days consumption held between company and bn level in original packaging.
Behind that another day is held at bde or div level with additional supllies held in corps level ammo supply points. Ammo is a "push" supplied commodity with a cross section of ammo supplies shoved forward to the stabbers and shooters. Arty ammo may be dumped at gun positions as needed to keep up with fire plans for tga attack or defence. Ammo supply is a big transportation problem. Care must be taken to have enough available on the ground, but not so much that it has to be moved multiple times before being fired.
Ammo can be stored temporarily in forward dumps on the ground w/o problems as long as it on pallets and in original packaging. A lot of the heavier and bulkier ammo is supplied in unitized lots which can be handled by forklift to avoid the manpower needed to hand bomb it on and off trucks.
Conventional armies tend to expend ammo pretty quickly once it has been issued so there's not too many possibilities of it laying around to deteriorate. For example, an infantry battalion will go into action with a 3 day basic load of ammo, one day on the weapon, and 2 days consumption held between company and bn level in original packaging.
Behind that another day is held at bde or div level with additional supllies held in corps level ammo supply points. Ammo is a "push" supplied commodity with a cross section of ammo supplies shoved forward to the stabbers and shooters. Arty ammo may be dumped at gun positions as needed to keep up with fire plans for tga attack or defence. Ammo supply is a big transportation problem. Care must be taken to have enough available on the ground, but not so much that it has to be moved multiple times before being fired.
Ammo can be stored temporarily in forward dumps on the ground w/o problems as long as it on pallets and in original packaging. A lot of the heavier and bulkier ammo is supplied in unitized lots which can be handled by forklift to avoid the manpower needed to hand bomb it on and off trucks.
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- Location
- WMU247 near Edmonton
well that's doctrine....
now the ammo is delivered to the FOB by the seacan load, but it is pushed out to all the smaller FOBs. in the old days we had 4 mags for the FN and sometimes a bandolier, so around 170 rounds for the rifle. Now its 10 mags and bandoliers, 300-500 rounds (good thing its 5.56)
one thing you never want to run short of is ammo, right up there with water. Everything else you can suffer without for a short period of time, running out of water or ammo and your dead.
so yes in desperate third world crap holes the locals will use whatever they can get, and may not have any more then what they have in the one magazine they have attached to the rifle they are carrying.
John, all of the things you describe are one of the reasons why well trained and properly regulated troops are so tough to beat for rag tag militants that have to scrounge and rely on captured/hidden away weapons/ammo and other supplies. It's the biggest weakness for ISIL forces. Their recent gains a few years ago allowed them to garner far more gear than they could possibly carry and they actually had a logistical supply problem which I don't think they knew how to deal with. IMHO most of those captured resources have been used up or destroyed in some manner. Word is they are being very frugal when ammo and weapons are being used. That doesn't mean they aren't dangerous but likely they are using a lot of conservation tactics instead of just letting go in all directions at a prodigious rate.
I really appreciate your insights on how an organized and relatively efficiently run military operates. So do many others here. I am also not belittling your comments in any way. My personal experiences are those that are the exact opposite of yours. I am sure in your extensive travels you have seen examples of what I write. Mostly though the people I worked with don't surrender and they just get used up along with their equipment which sometimes gets picked up but as often as not, rots with the body it falls beside.
The reality of the situation is that the organized and supported troops usually get to work with relatively well cared for equipment that is kept operational in the field with an adequate supply chain. This isn't always the case and some militaries are rag tag outfits at best. Even then they do have many advantages such as numbers and resupply sources.
Woodchopper wrote:
one thing you never want to run short of is ammo, right up there with water. Everything else you can suffer without for a short period of time, running out of water or ammo and your dead.
Woodchopper, I have seen situations where ammo was thrown away and even weapons in favor of carrying adequate supplies of water. Everything else is usually replaceable but water and a bare minimum of food are absolutely essential. Any armed force, organized or otherwise runs on its bladder and then its stomach.
That is a truism that has been the troopies' constant for time immemorial. Combatants can get by for 24-48 hours without water depending on their energy expenditures and environment. I have seen men and women go into delirium under stressful conditions because of lack of water after the adrenalin rush wears off. Once the adrenaline expires, that's when the thirst hits and bladders empty along with bowels. Often, those pesky body parts will release their contents during the rush. This all needs to be replaced asap, especially under extreme environmental conditions. The next big loss is salt. Other minerals can wait but SALT is a quick energy booster and even levels mental states. I have seen people licking their own sweat for the salt.
I really appreciate your insights on how an organized and relatively efficiently run military operates. So do many others here. I am also not belittling your comments in any way. My personal experiences are those that are the exact opposite of yours. I am sure in your extensive travels you have seen examples of what I write. Mostly though the people I worked with don't surrender and they just get used up along with their equipment which sometimes gets picked up but as often as not, rots with the body it falls beside.
The reality of the situation is that the organized and supported troops usually get to work with relatively well cared for equipment that is kept operational in the field with an adequate supply chain. This isn't always the case and some militaries are rag tag outfits at best. Even then they do have many advantages such as numbers and resupply sources.
Woodchopper wrote:
one thing you never want to run short of is ammo, right up there with water. Everything else you can suffer without for a short period of time, running out of water or ammo and your dead.
Woodchopper, I have seen situations where ammo was thrown away and even weapons in favor of carrying adequate supplies of water. Everything else is usually replaceable but water and a bare minimum of food are absolutely essential. Any armed force, organized or otherwise runs on its bladder and then its stomach.
That is a truism that has been the troopies' constant for time immemorial. Combatants can get by for 24-48 hours without water depending on their energy expenditures and environment. I have seen men and women go into delirium under stressful conditions because of lack of water after the adrenalin rush wears off. Once the adrenaline expires, that's when the thirst hits and bladders empty along with bowels. Often, those pesky body parts will release their contents during the rush. This all needs to be replaced asap, especially under extreme environmental conditions. The next big loss is salt. Other minerals can wait but SALT is a quick energy booster and even levels mental states. I have seen people licking their own sweat for the salt.
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