Is this me or the sights?

RK99

RK99

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Lower Mainland, BC
Took the MC28 and Beretta .22 to the range this evening. Shot some targets at around 6 or 7 yards. I seem to get fairly well centered on the target with the .22 (some were way off but that was me not taking my time) but the MC28 is still shooting a little low and left. I thinkI am getting fairly good and consistent groups with it though so are my sights off or do you all think I'm still doing something wrong with my grip etc?

Top left and right are the .22 and the head and torso are the 9mm:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/184913418@N05/u175vh

Top 3 targets are the .22 and the body center is the 9mm:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/184913418@N05/84ZEgP
 
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Low left is consistent with a flinch for a righty. Makes sense that the 9mm will cause more of a flinch than the .22.

Have to say, those are pretty tight groups for a flinch so you're doing something right. Most people who flinch will land one on the 10x or high right because they will compensate so the group looks much bigger.

The only way to be sure if it’s the gun or you is to have another good shooter try your gun, before you mess around with the sights.

Another thing you may try is gripping the gun firmer with your left hand. Most righties will squeeze harder with the right hand and end up pushing the trigger to the left resulting in shots going left. Doing this will fix the left but not the low shots. Those are usually due to anticipation of the shot ie. the “flinch”.
 
I just coached a shooter through a similar situation yesterday. He was shooting on the left half of the target with his Glock. The right side was unused. :)

I shot the gun to be sure the sights were ok (5 shots about 1.25” wide at 10 yds, centered on the bullseye). All good.

Went over grip and isolating his trigger finger. Got him to try increasing his grip strength with BOTH hands. Trigger hand was to tighten up as much as he could while still maintaining smooth trigger finger manipulation. Support hand was to tighten up a lot, but not shaking.

The reason I asked him to increase his strong hand pressure, is I didn’t think he was isolating his trigger finger properly. So pulling on that gross, heavy trigger, got his other fingers involved in the action.

If he grips with more pressure, then if the other fingers try to play too, they won’t affect things as much, percentage-wise. :)

I coached him through slow trigger pulls, and he put the next 5 rounds in a nice group, within 2” of the bullseye, with only 1 shot a bit further out than that. Now he just needs to practice.
 
Jimbo's reply struck me as odd. But if the person he was instructing was only holding with a very light grip then his advice was good. Generally when I've seen wider spaced groups it's because the shooter is white knuckling the gun. And when that happens it is tough to isolate the trigger finger. It didn't occur to me that the same might be the case with a very light grip. But I can see that.

I like to suggest to folks that they use a grip similar to a firm handshake where you're not actually trying to make them submit to your Alpha'ism. Or if you do any other sports about the same as you trip a baseball bat or a tennis racquet or things of that sort. so firm for control but not so tight that your arm and hand are going to wear out and cry "UNCLE!" too soon.

Group wise I like what I'm seeing if the groups are at something over 10 yards. And if you are out at 12 to 15 yards then you might be able to shift the groups a touch to the right (assuming right handed) by putting your trigger finger in a touch more through the guard. Or it may be that you're pivoting your base knuckle too much instead of the second knuckle of your trigger finger. Mind you for double action revolvers and some semi autos with long pre-travel or double action travel you need to do a little with both knuckles. But try a bit more of your finger through the guard for now.

The lowness of the groups might be the sights. Hell, the left'ism might be the sights too. But clearly whatever you're doing is very consistent. Perhaps seek out one of the better shooters and have them try your gun. And if they are semi autos get onto YT and search for "travis haley handgun grip" and watch and learn how to correctly hold a semi auto. The one of him teaching an outdoor class is solid gold.
 
Hey BCRider,

I’ve been evolving how I work with shooters over time, and currently come at it this way:

When it comes to grip pressure, I describe it by using the Goldilocks story. Too little isn’t good (gun moves too much). Too much isn’t good (shaking gun or uneven trigger finger manipulation due to poor isolation). You want it in between. I also work with a lot of seniors, who may have arthritis issues or fine motor control issues, so that’s why I explain how various muscles in both hands, as well as the trigger finger effort, can affect the accuracy. It’s a system, and it all has to balance, with the goal of the sights staying on target, as the trigger breaks.

Armed with the knowledge of how things work, they can then adjust things to their situation. :)
 
Still alive said:
Now you're gonna make his head swell. He'll be hard to deal with at the next match! Lol!
Click to expand...
You should have seen what he did with my Shadow! November is going to be painful for you. Lol!

RK99: it was a pleasure to help. The variety of guns you brought, combined with your knowledge of anatomy, etc, made it super easy to get concepts across. You made great improvements, and I wish you well. :cheers:
 
I was instructed to hold with a 60/40 percentage grip and learn to press the trigger. When one pulls the trigger the tendency is to use your wrist to pull the trigger finger hence shooting low left for righties. Has cured my low left shots. Works for me but took a bit of getting used to. Always used to pull the trigger.
 
This is why Bill Jordan generally recommends moving to your left during serious social engagements.

TgNHvAml.jpg
 
jimbo14 said:
You should have seen what he did with my Shadow! November is going to be painful for you. Lol!

RK99: it was a pleasure to help. The variety of guns you brought, combined with your knowledge of anatomy, etc, made it super easy to get concepts across. You made great improvements, and I wish you well. :cheers:
Click to expand...

I appreciated all your insights ands will keep working on what you told me. Maybe I'll even be competing against you guys some day ;-)
 
8x68 said:
I was instructed to hold with a 60/40 percentage grip and learn to press the trigger. When one pulls the trigger the tendency is to use your wrist to pull the trigger finger hence shooting low left for righties. Has cured my low left shots. Works for me but took a bit of getting used to. Always used to pull the trigger.
Click to expand...

Yes. I need to isolate my trigger finger and be a bit smoother with it. That's what I'm going to work on. Was much easier with Jimbo14's Shadow he let me try. Such a nice light trigger. Mine seem really heavy by comparison.
 
jimbo14 said:
Hey BCRider,

I’ve been evolving how I work with shooters over time, and currently come at it this way:

When it comes to grip pressure, I describe it by using the Goldilocks story. Too little isn’t good (gun moves too much). Too much isn’t good (shaking gun or uneven trigger finger manipulation due to poor isolation). You want it in between. I also work with a lot of seniors, who may have arthritis issues or fine motor control issues, so that’s why I explain how various muscles in both hands, as well as the trigger finger effort, can affect the accuracy. It’s a system, and it all has to balance, with the goal of the sights staying on target, as the trigger breaks.

Armed with the knowledge of how things work, they can then adjust things to their situation. :)
Click to expand...

I'm late in getting back to this thread. But what you're doing sounds great. And in particular the Goldilocks story about getting it "just right". So much of shooting well is reaching a balance in all the areas.

I don't know what matches you guys shoot but if you come out to the Speed Steel or IDPA matches held at Mission or Chilliwack we'll likely run into each other sooner or later.. .if we have not done so already..... darn screen names... :D
 
BCRider said:
I'm late in getting back to this thread. But what you're doing sounds great. And in particular the Goldilocks story about getting it "just right". So much of shooting well is reaching a balance in all the areas.

I don't know what matches you guys shoot but if you come out to the Speed Steel or IDPA matches held at Mission or Chilliwack we'll likely run into each other sooner or later.. .if we have not done so already..... darn screen names... :D
Click to expand...
We may have already met at the Aug IDPA in Chilliwack, or earlier. :)

If RK99 wants to try action shooting down the road, I’ll get him ready for IDPA. :cheers:
 
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