Is US factory ammo intentionally made with one-use brass?

[I Dont Care About You]

Obviously my headspacing problems didn't cure themselves because I used better brass.

Well, actually it could. 303 headspaces off the rim and so brass with a thicker rim will headspace correctly while brass with a thinner rim could exhibit headspace problems in a chamber that is a little long.

I have never measured 303 case rims but I bet they vary quite a lot.

the current generation is reluctant to even try out one of these wonderful warhorses - even at the prevailing crazy low prices.

You think $1000 - $1500 for a No4 is "crazy low?"

BTW I also have an AIA L-E-type gun in 7.62x39. Guess what. That gun doesn't know what an expansion ring - or a head separation is.

Totally different chamber, built by a company interested in quality and consistency. This example means nothing with respect to discussions about 303 LE headspace issues or not.

 

[tiriaq]

Headspace is determined by gauging.
Shiny expansion rings are not headspace related. Incipient separation rings are.
In the case of a rimmed cartridge, rim thickness is a factor apart from whatever the measurement is from breech face to barrel face. A rifle can gauge correctly but an excess headspace situation can exist because of thinner than spec. rims. Some commercial brass is noted for thin rims. This could result in incipient or complete separation on first firing.
An excess headspace situation in .303 rifle/cartridge relationship is very likely to result in incipient separations. Expansion rings may or may not be noticeable, but are unrelated. It may be that rim thickness of the Herter's cases is on the thick side, which would very much contribute to the longevity that you are observing.
It is too bad that you have a limited quantity of the obviously superior Herter's brass. Fortunately it appears that it will last indefinitely. Once it is gone it is going to be a catch as catch can situation trying to find more.

 

[OkayShooter]

What does 762 not having case separation have to do with 303? That like me gloating my 9mm didnt. I'm glad I got a tight Irish Contract that is not shot out.

I think Tiriaq knows a thing or two about Lee Enfields. Pretty sure 303 is the most common used caliber in Iquailat.

 

[tiriaq]

[/COLOR]

Well, actually it could. 303 headspaces off the rim and so brass with a thicker rim will headspace correctly while brass with a thinner rim could exhibit headspace problems in a chamber that is a little long.

I have never measured 303 case rims but I bet they vary quite a lot.





You think $1000 - $1500 for a No4 is "crazy low?"





Totally different chamber, built by a company interested in quality and consistency. This example means nothing with respect to discussions about 303 LE headspace issues or not.

Some of the AIA rifles were made up using Minigun barrels left behind in Vietnam by the Americans when they pulled out in 1975. These were high quality barrels. No idea what the source of the other barrels used by the Vietnamese in production of the AIA rifles was. I expect that the 7.62x39 barrels came out of a factory making AK barrels, so the production facility would have been a mature, well tooled one.

 

[steelgray]

What does 762 not having case separation have to do with 303? That like me gloating my 9mm didnt. I'm glad I got a tight Irish Contract that is not shot out.

I think Tiriaq knows a thing or two about Lee Enfields. Pretty sure 303 is the most common used caliber in Iquailat.

I know that Tiriaq knows his stuff. I've been to Iqaluit a few times and the only guns I saw were mini 14s. I've been a lot father North that that (like Resolute), plus WAY North of the Arctic Circle in Norway

 

[steelgray]

Some of the AIA rifles were made up using Minigun barrels left behind in Vietnam by the Americans when they pulled out in 1975. These were high quality barrels. No idea what the source of the other barrels used by the Vietnamese in production of the AIA rifles was. I expect that the 7.62x39 barrels came out of a factory making AK barrels, so the production facility would have been a mature, well tooled one.

I've heard that story about them having surplus minigun barrels but, in spite of that, I still haven't been able to figure out how to get mine to go full auto.

 

[tiriaq]

I know that Tiriaq knows his stuff. I've been to Iqaluit a few times and the only guns I saw were mini 14s. I've been a lot father North that that (like Resolute), plus WAY North of the Arctic Circle in Norway

In my 30 years North of 60 I encountered very few Minis, although I left in 2005 and things may have changed. Might have sold half a dozen. Repaired a few. Still have parts from one I scrapped; it was a .222. At one time I thought it might be fun to rebarrel it, with a barrel having a bit of meat to it. See if accuracy could be improved. The .222 barrel was bulged in two places. Incidentally, Mini barrels don't interchange. I experimented a bit. If you sent one back to Ruger for a new barrel, you got a brand new barrel and receiver, with the old serial number. I remember scope mounting miseries on Minis that did not have the integral bases. The various clamp on mounts don't hold zero. I drilled and tapped a blue one for the Leupold base. Had to use a carbide drill. Later a customer brought in a stainless Mini to be drilled and tapped. OK says I, but a new carbide drill is going to be part of the cost. The carbide drill would not even mark the surface - and those things will make holes in darn near anything. Gave the customer his rifle back.

 

[steelgray]

I was hoping you'd comment because you seem very knowledgeable. There certainly are businesses on the web selling Copper Tungsten alloys (LINK) but I see them mostly supplying the stuff for use in electrical contacts, electrodes etc. I wonder if you have any ideas what alloy could be used to make cartridge cases with a specific gravity of about 10? I'm quite sure of my SG calculations ( I did them multiple times). I just don't know how to interpret them. The Copper Tungsten idea made some sense to me because - as noted - pictures of Copper Tungsten materials seem to show that the stuff has a slight pinky hue - which is a characteristic of my Herters cases (something that many people notice).

Any ideas?

Any chance they could be using Phosphor Bronze? It seems to have some of the right properties and the SG is about 9. Pretty close to the SG of Herters cases

 

[steelgray]

In my 30 years North of 60 I encountered very few Minis, although I left in 2005 and things may have changed. Might have sold half a dozen. Repaired a few. Still have parts from one I scrapped; it was a .222. At one time I thought it might be fun to rebarrel it, with a barrel having a bit of meat to it. See if accuracy could be improved. The .222 barrel was bulged in two places. Incidentally, Mini barrels don't interchange. I experimented a bit. If you sent one back to Ruger for a new barrel, you got a brand new barrel and receiver, with the old serial number. I remember scope mounting miseries on Minis that did not have the integral bases. The various clamp on mounts don't hold zero. I drilled and tapped a blue one for the Leupold base. Had to use a carbide drill. Later a customer brought in a stainless Mini to be drilled and tapped. OK says I, but a new carbide drill is going to be part of the cost. The carbide drill would not even mark the surface - and those things will make holes in darn near anything. Gave the customer his rifle back.

I never lived in the North. Only travelled there quite a bit for both business and leisure. Mostly in the Western Arctic - as I have friends and clients there. Lots of local travel in turbo prop Twin Otters with Tundra tracks. I have gone for various random swims in the Arctic Ocean in the areas around Tuk without a wet suit. For years the only ocean that my kids had ever seen was the Arctic Ocean. One year we did a trip across the North and another to Disneyworld Florida and my son often said he liked the trip North better. Just too bad its so expensive to visit. More Southerners should see that part of the country.

 

[tiriaq]

Only time I went swimming in the North was in Hudson Bay. A HBC barge loaded with food items had been holed when pushed in and had sunk in shallow water. We were ducking down and salvaging what we could. No way I would have gone in that water for the sake of swimming. Never made it to Beaufort Sea. YK, Fort Smith, Pine Point (when it existed) in the West. We lived in Arviat and Iqaluit. Did get to some of the other communities in Keewatin and on Baffin Island. The most northerly communities I visited were Clyde River and Iglulik. Clyde River in February was darn cold, but at least the sun was back.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

What does 762 not having case separation have to do with 303? That like me gloating my 9mm didnt. I'm glad I got a tight Irish Contract that is not shot out.

I think Tiriaq knows a thing or two about Lee Enfields. Pretty sure 303 is the most common used caliber in Iquailat.

They headspace differently for starters. On a tapered case, headspace also controls the diameter of the chamber at the back end of the chamber. That is, a chamber cut too deeply will also end up with too large of a diameter at the back end of the chamber.

So. On a rimmed case like 303 a chamber cut too long can still have correct headspace. I think LE chambers were intentionally cut too deep, for reliability in dirty conditions. This results in overly large OD at the back end, which is what causes the expansion ring. With correct headspace off the rim, the case will expand without stretching too much. It still stretches, just not enough to split the case.

Then, as I was referring to modern made Australian rifles, I am certain they cut the chambers properly ... something I wouldn't say about a wartime made LE.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

No idea what the source of the other barrels used by the Vietnamese in production of the AIA rifles was. I expect that the 7.62x39 barrels came out of a factory making AK barrels, so the production facility would have been a mature, well tooled one.

Who made the barrel is not as important as who fitted and chambered the barrel. The condition of brass coming out of a chamber is really only a function of the fitting and chambering work.

 

[tiriaq]

I suspect that the fitting and chambering was done in the same facility where the barrels were made. This wasn't custom work, it was production.

 

[tiriaq]

They headspace differently for starters. On a tapered case, headspace also controls the diameter of the chamber at the back end of the chamber. That is, a chamber cut too deeply will also end up with too large of a diameter at the back end of the chamber.

So. On a rimmed case like 303 a chamber cut too long can still have correct headspace. I think LE chambers were intentionally cut too deep, for reliability in dirty conditions. This results in overly large OD at the back end, which is what causes the expansion ring. With correct headspace off the rim, the case will expand without stretching too much. It still stretches, just not enough to split the case.

Then, as I was referring to modern made Australian rifles, I am certain they cut the chambers properly ... something I wouldn't say about a wartime made LE.

Chambers were cut according to the specifications in the drawings. These specs are available. Chambering wasn't done in a haphazard manner. With .303, the gap for the rim determines headspace. The body portion of the chamber is unrelated, and chamber dimensions allowed for battlefield conditions.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

I suspect that the fitting and chambering was done in the same facility where the barrels were made. This wasn't custom work, it was production.

Why?

You suggested the barrels came out of a factory making AKs. Nobody in Australia makes AKs. The AIA rifles were made in Aus. I'd suspect AIA bought profiled blanks and then threaded and chambered the barrels to fit their receivers.

For AIA to purchase completed barrels from overseas, they would need to standardize the action dimensions and specify limits for the barrels to meet so as to create the correct headspace etc.

The truth being neither of us knows for sure so we are both kinda guessing here.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Chambers were cut according to the specifications in the drawings. These specs are available. Chambering wasn't done in a haphazard manner. With .303, the gap for the rim determines headspace. The body portion of the chamber is unrelated, and chamber dimensions allowed for battlefield conditions.

Ive been going around and around with how 303 chambers are cut in comparison to how headspace is determined. I've never cut a 303 chamber, only rimless chambers, so I am more familiar with those.

While your statement above is technically correct, there is a fly in that logic that I think you've missed. Headspace is created or determined, if you will, by the interaction of the bolt face to the chamber. Thus the chamber alone does not determine headspace.

I agree there would have been drawings that included allowable range of dimensions for a chamber, I think it is incorrect to assert that rifles were built exactly to those dimensions. LE rifles were pumped out in the millions during wartime, when fine tolerances would have stood in the way of production speed and the reliability of weapons subjected to extremely dirty operating conditions. As an example, I owned a WWII production 1911, which I wanted to build into a race gun. When the slide was tested, it was found to be insufficiently hardened and thus not a good candidate for a competition pistol. Wartime volume requirements many times overruled adherence to production standards.

So, getting back to how headspace is created in a LE rifle, it is important not to forget the range of bolt heads available to "correct" or adjust headspace. Thus it would be perfectly normal to have chambers that were cut too deeply, subsequently "corrected" by the use of a bolt head. As I noted before, this would create a chamber with the correct headspace but which was overly large diameter at the back end.

Do I have any idea of how common such a result may have occurred during rapid wartime production? Nope, not at all. I'm just saying this is a simple and logical explanation for chambers that are overly large at the back end, which would create expansion rings in fired cases that so many people report.

I had to look it up, but the predecessor to SAAMI, SAMSAA was an American organization that came into being just before WWI. As an American group it is highly unlikely that British manufacturers recognized them. I have no idea if such a group existed in Britain to standardize arms and ammunition during wartime production? Or maybe the UK govt controlled all the LE manufacturers and so they didn't need a group like SAAMI?

 

[OkayShooter]

Why?

You suggested the barrels came out of a factory making AKs. Nobody in Australia makes AKs. The AIA rifles were made in Aus. I'd suspect AIA bought profiled blanks and then threaded and chambered the barrels to fit their receivers.

For AIA to purchase completed barrels from overseas, they would need to standardize the action dimensions and specify limits for the barrels to meet so as to create the correct headspace etc.

The truth being neither of us knows for sure so we are both kinda guessing here.

They could bought semi finished barrels. That they needed to do a little fitting, or reaming. I bought a NOS barrel for a rifle that needed some minor reamer work to headspace.

 

[steelgray]

I know that AIA made their L-E pattern guns in 7.62x389 and 308 win. I know that many owners of the AIA 308 guns got them rebarreled because they didn't group well. I assume this was because AIA used .311 blanks for both their 7.62x39 and 308 guns. I bet that people would do well to keep the original barrel in their "308" win AIA gun but use a .311 expander ball and load 308 brass with .311s - when using those guns. I could have bought a used AIA 308 gun a month ago for around $1,200 but took a pass. The 7.62x39 gun is great.

On the matter of where the barrels came from tiriaq is right that it was eventually determined that the barrels and some other parts were sourced from Vietnam. That was a big deal because once that was determined, the US blocked imports of the finished guns. That basically destroyed AIA's business plan - as AIA was counting on lots of US sales to cover their costs. They ended production, early as a result.

I've read that a special target model used NOS minigun surplus barrels. The have some special treatment or coating. AIA never said where the other barrels came from but, US customs said VIETNAM. So yeah, some Vietnamese AK factory is a good guess.

They could bought semi finished barrels. That they needed to do a little fitting, or reaming. I bought a NOS barrel for a rifle that needed some minor reamer work to headspace.

 

[OkayShooter]

Well I think everybody knows AIA Lee's were in 308 and X39. That is no secret.

 

[tiriaq]

Ive been going around and around with how 303 chambers are cut in comparison to how headspace is determined. I've never cut a 303 chamber, only rimless chambers, so I am more familiar with those.

While your statement above is technically correct, there is a fly in that logic that I think you've missed. Headspace is created or determined, if you will, by the interaction of the bolt face to the chamber. Thus the chamber alone does not determine headspace.

I agree there would have been drawings that included allowable range of dimensions for a chamber, I think it is incorrect to assert that rifles were built exactly to those dimensions. LE rifles were pumped out in the millions during wartime, when fine tolerances would have stood in the way of production speed and the reliability of weapons subjected to extremely dirty operating conditions. As an example, I owned a WWII production 1911, which I wanted to build into a race gun. When the slide was tested, it was found to be insufficiently hardened and thus not a good candidate for a competition pistol. Wartime volume requirements many times overruled adherence to production standards.

So, getting back to how headspace is created in a LE rifle, it is important not to forget the range of bolt heads available to "correct" or adjust headspace. Thus it would be perfectly normal to have chambers that were cut too deeply, subsequently "corrected" by the use of a bolt head. As I noted before, this would create a chamber with the correct headspace but which was overly large diameter at the back end.

Do I have any idea of how common such a result may have occurred during rapid wartime production? Nope, not at all. I'm just saying this is a simple and logical explanation for chambers that are overly large at the back end, which would create expansion rings in fired cases that so many people report.

I had to look it up, but the predecessor to SAAMI, SAMSAA was an American organization that came into being just before WWI. As an American group it is highly unlikely that British manufacturers recognized them. I have no idea if such a group existed in Britain to standardize arms and ammunition during wartime production? Or maybe the UK govt controlled all the LE manufacturers and so they didn't need a group like SAAMI?

A Lee Enfield barrel is flat faced. The rim of the cartridge butts up against it. The bolt face is flat. When the bolt is closed, there is a gap between the bolt face and the barrel face. That is where headspace occurs and where the rim fits. This gap has little to do with the chamber where the body of the cartridge fits (or not). A current SAAMI spec .303 reamer will cut both the chamber body and a rim recess. No need for a rim recess in a Lee Enfield, but if something like a Ruger No. 1 is being chambered, it is important. The shape of a SAAMI chamber is not the same as that of a Lee Enfield. The millions of Lee Enfield barrels were gauged before being accepted. Manufacture was not haphazard. About the only haphazard .303 chambering that was done was the reworking of Mk. II Ross rifles when the chambers were reamed oversized by hand. Cases fired in these rifles are quite remarkable.
No. 4 bolt heads were finished in different lengths to facilitate headspacing rifles. This was done during manufacture. A barrel with a finished chamber could be torqued into a receiver, and headspace set with the appropriate bolt head. Rifles in as new condition usually have low number boltheads, because they were, well, new. A partly worn rifle could have its headspace corrected by installing a longer bolt head. SMLEs didn't work this way. No. 4 replacement barrels had finished chambers. That is an advantage for servicing rifles, easier than using an almost chambered barrel and a pull reamer as was the case with M-1 rifles.
Remington used multiple length boltheads in M700 production for the same reasons. If you inspect R700 bolt left hand locking lugs you will see either a plain surface, a dimple punch mark or a line.