It does not get much more precision than this.

[rpollock]

Everyone seems very excited about reading 0.047" at 200 yards - am I the only guy here who reads that and wants to give up?

Don't give up! Agging is where it is at! Single groups don't win the weekend!

That said, I do enjoy reading about other competitors accomplishments. This is truly a remarkable target. Not to mention if it makes it into the record book, it will likely stand for a very long time. The old NBRSA record is .099, this target essentially cuts the old record in half.

 

[redman]

That's the beauty of competition! Rest assured that someone will eventually cut the new record in half! Then you'll feel even worse!

In regards to optics it is not the cost but the ability to hold POI 100%. When you are trying to shoot 5 shot groups and put them into the .1's 100% POI is a must. Price does not guarantee that. March appears to be the ONLY company that has stepped up to the plate to address this issue for the shortrange benchrest shooter. Personally for the cost of a March I would freeze my Weavers, and put externally adjustable mounts. I may suffer in clarity in comparison to the March but I still have money in my pocket.

Bottom line Benchrest is more than just old guys shooting off of a bench. There is a lot involved.

CBY

Maybe, but if you're gonna put thousands into a world-class rifle and reloading components/practices, it's a bit odd that corners are cut in terms of optics by hacking a cheap scope to make it work... But if it wins matches, who am I to argue?

Haha, "old" might have a different meaning between the two of us... you're talking to someone in his mid 20's . Thanks for the insight, CBY; I learn more about this hobby all the time, although benchrest.com is still a bit shoddy in places

 

[cycbb486]

Redman it

is not about cutting corners it is all about having a scope that WILL NOT have a POI shift. The high priced optics like NIGHTFORCE, S&B, ZEISS will not guarantee that. I will sacrifice a bit of clarity for a SOLID scope. Our matches are shot through the day so it does not matter to me if I sacrifice a bit of clarity and light gathering ability.

I use a Weaver 36x for my bench gun for the fact that I can have 2 for the price of a Leupold and throw in externally adjustable mounts. If they ever crap out, they will have the guts removed and be frozen in place.

The weight of these scopes also do not lend themselves to shortrange candidates in a 10.5 lb rifle. Warranty work for these high priced scopes is done where?

Ultimately a BR shooter in Canada should be using a LEUPOLD as we have a repair depot in Alberta and he himself is a shortrange BR shooter. He knows all to well what the concerns are.

I do not have the years of experience or finances to give you 100% proof. The bottom line is we MUST TRUST the results from those who have proved this and are the top shooters in the BR world. Just read up on the new World Champion Gene Bukys from the US and some of the history he has in the BR world, or a legend Tony Boyer.

Bottom line is, what I see up here in Canada is a different kind of shooter. I see more shooters who want to be the wannabe Rambo's with there tactical rifles built on Rem 700's or Savages by spending the same money to make them shoot than the man who has done it RIGHT from the start. These rifles also can supposedly agg with a full blown BR rifle. Unfortunately reality is it will NEVER happen.

Same in regards to the optics, the above high priced mentioned optics WILL NOT guarantee holding zero POI shift. A scope that has the internal moving guts removed and epoxied into place WILL NOT move.

Many may not believe the above thoughts but as I am a follower of the shortrange game and shoot it myself. I do all I can to learn about the game and try put to practice what I have learned from the best out there.

I should ask what do you mean by benchrest.com being shoddy?

CBY

 

[cycbb486]

Greenpasture

wow. where can a person find out more details on BR? What website?

the ultimate site for learning about benchrest is I hope it okay to say..................

benchrest.com

Spend plenty of time reading and using the search feature. The search feature actually works on that site.

Just a heads up when posting questions make sure you direct them at the correct forum. When they talk competition or centerfire benchrest on that forum they are talking FULL BLOWN custom rifles. Modified factory rifles do not fit into those forums. They are geared towards the factory hybred forum.

Anything you want to know about the ULTIMATE in ACCURACY this site will answer questions for you. There is very little reinventing the wheel. The tried and true in regards to the ultimate accuracy calibers is what is mostly talked about and used.

6mmbr.com is also a good forum.

One of the Alberta shooters Rick Pollock built a Canadian website to try and help promote benchrest in Canada. He has done it all on his own. Kudo's to Rick for this. It takes time and effort to do it and he did it all on his own. The site is benchrest.ca.

The other thing which is a hidden jem is joining the Benchrest Shooters of Canada. It gives you access to some conversation via e-mail to some great Canadian shooters, places to get the PREMIUM components needed, rifles that come up for sale, and the list goes on.

Enjoy learning about the world of shortrange and longrange benchrest.

There is nothing like going day in and day out to the range trying to better your last performance.

CBY

 

[redman]

Bottom line is, what I see up here in Canada is a different kind of shooter. I see more shooters who want to be the wannabe Rambo's with there tactical rifles built on Rem 700's or Savages by spending the same money to make them shoot than the man who has done it RIGHT from the start. These rifles also can supposedly agg with a full blown BR rifle. Unfortunately reality is it will NEVER happen.

[...]

I should ask what do you mean by benchrest.com being shoddy?

CBY

Thanks again for explaining the BR optics woes... Have you ever experienced these POI problems firsthand? With which scope(s)?

Well, I sure can't pretend to speak for the rest of Canada as to why they chose to shoot the way they do, with the rifles that appeal to them... I could only give you my own, which probably won't tell you much in the grander scheme of things.

As for benchrest.com: I like to compare it to 6mmbr.com... When click on "Optics" there, I get a nice article describing what I should look for in a scope. When I click on "Optics" at benchrest.com, I get a list of dealers. If I look up "light varmint" on 6mmbr.com, I get some descriptions, articles and pics... benchrest.com doesn't seem to have a search feature, unless you go to the forums, and searching for "light varmint" talks about some match winners. 6mmbr seem to cater to the general shooter, whereas benchrest.com looks like it's an "insiders only" type of venue.

 

[cycbb486]

I can't

speak for myself as I do not have the time behind the rifle and am still learning something every time I shoot.

The guys from Benchrest.com have proved it various times that scopes are one of the week links. You have to have 100% cofidence in your shooting ability when it comes to wind flag reading, bench technique, the tune of your rifle, and it's agging capability.

Then and only then will you start to see if there are issues with POI unless the obvious of it being screwed right from the get go.

CBY

 

[rpollock]

Thanks again for explaining the BR optics woes... Have you ever experienced these POI problems firsthand? With which scope(s)?

This particular issue yes.

Scope problems are well documented in BR. All scopes, except the March, so far.

There are even dual scope mounts that will allow you to mount 2 scopes on one rifle to see if both scopes can hold the same point of aim. You can mount a scope on a rail gun and see if it will hold point of aim.

There is a micro industry built around modifying scopes for BR use. Glued or "frozen" guts, external adjustable mounts, extra heavy internal springs, the list goes on. If it is only shifting .020" at a 100 yds you will probably never know it, however when it starts shifting .050" at a 100 yds it becomes noticeable to an experienced BR shooter.

What we are talking about here, really only has relevance in the world of BR, which is why you won't see much information about this. The manufacturers all say this falls within their tolerances. Why wouldn't it? 99.9% of shooters will never see this problem in their rifles. I don't blame the manufacturers one bit for not addressing this.

It is not a question of "if" I have a bad scope, it is a question of "when" will I get one! At least in the context of competition BR.

 

[redman]

Makes sense, guys - precision is all about the tolerances you are willing to allow... I'll be honest: I put down a little over 2000$ for my scope and, even though I don't shoot BR-caliber groups, I'd be damn curious to know how much the POI shifts... Any way to test this? Would I need a railgun? Thanks.

 

[CyaN1de]

I think first off that you would have to know that your rifle is capable of putting every shot through the same hole.

If you have a 1/4min or 1/2min gun then you would be hard pressed to figure out if the POI is changing in the scope or not even with a "return to battery" type rest or a rail gun.

My thoughts anyhow.....I may be wrong.....it has happened in the past.

 

[Mystic Precision]

To test a scope POI shift, you need a rifle that is more accurate then the error in the scope.

You also need conditions that will let you test consistently to this level of accuracy. A tunnel would be nice.

So unless the rig and ammo is capable of averaging in the 0's and 1's, the error in the shooting is bigger then any error in the scope.

Also remember, the problem DOES exist. It doesn't mean EVERY scope has this problem.

By freezing the scope, one variable can be eliminated whether it would have caused a problem or not. Also, the final scope kit would still be much cheaper then a March or similar scope so economics and weight play a role here too.

Just like using a 2oz trigger even though a heavier trigger pull might offer similar performance. Or weighing primers. Does it matter? If the shooter believes it does, then it does.

Ultimately when the rig is fully tuned and trusted, it becomes a test bed for future barrels, bullets and components. Not every combo shoots as well and there is a fair amount of culling even with the 'best' of gear.

That is if your goal is to put them into one teeny tiny hole inside 200yds.

With my interests in LR shooting, my error reading a condition is about 100 times worse then any jiggle my scope my have. So my efforts are put elsewhere.

Jerry

PS if you go to longrangehunting.com, I have an article on the home page on how I test and set up my scopes. Run your scope through this test. It doesn't test POI shift per se but it works the tracking very hard. If a scope doesn't track, it might not hold zero either.

 

[rpollock]

Makes sense, guys - precision is all about the tolerances you are willing to allow... I'll be honest: I put down a little over 2000$ for my scope and, even though I don't shoot BR-caliber groups, I'd be damn curious to know how much the POI shifts... Any way to test this? Would I need a railgun? Thanks.

I wouldn't worry about it. I noted above there is a dual scope mounting device or the railgun idea for testing. Why bother though? You will never see this problem manifest itself on the target unless you are shooting full tilt BR rifles, and even then it is very hard to detect. It simply isn't a problem outside the context of competition BR.

 

[redman]

True, I'd never observe the problem with the style of shooting I do but, as I mentioned in my previous post, it's a question of curiosity as to how much care a renowned name that fetches big $$$ put into POI consistency... Curious if it's "BR-worthy" . I'll try your test, MysticPlayer, but I'm not too worried about tracking since I saw it pass a tracking test from another site.

Anyway, bravo to the gentleman who made the record, and as manufacturers try to keep up with BR obsessiveness , I'm sure the next one's not too far off!

 

[Mystic Precision]

Every scope is different. You may have the one done late afternoon just before the Xmas dinner party.

I have seen some very expensive well known brands fail to track. Not saying ALL were bad, but the one that was tested certainly was.

Same goes for POI shift. It is something that can occur in some scopes given common scope designs BUT does not mean all scopes are affected.

Shooting F class or pounding rocks in the next zone will not be affected by POI shifts (way too small an error to matter). However, tracking WILL be much more problematic.

Different sports, different needs.

Saving my pennies for a March....
Jerry

Jerry