ITAR UBR cross border shipping mishap

Rebel Rouser said:
We could of had one, but the Liberal government at the time didn't want one. We were offered a ITAR expemtion by the US, but didn't take it.
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Not quite...
We had an effective exemption (for some material covered by the defense production treaty) but then the Americans decided that they could tell us who we could sell our stuff too and who we could employ (ie an Iranian born Canadian citizen is not eligable by American lawto work on certain programmes)
But really, we're all good buddies :Dand not treated any worse than the Brits (special relationship...not so special) and the Aussies.
 
It is so screwed up that a major supplier to Colt Canada did not know about this and has been shipping to them since 2001! With friends like the SecNav, he got his export permit in no time! it is ALWAYS who one knows and not what one knows!

Regards,
Henry:cool:
 
hnachaj said:
It is so screwed up that a major supplier to Colt Canada did not know about this and has been shipping to them since 2001! With friends like the SecNav, he got his export permit in no time! it is ALWAYS who one knows and not what one knows!

Regards,
Henry:cool:
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:confused:

If anyone in the business did not know this they have been sleeping under a rock.
 
You apply to the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade for an International Import Certificate. (DFAIT, IIC). You can do this on line. Free. Send this to the licenced US exporter. The exporter will apply to US Department of State or Department of Commerce, as the case may be, for an export permit. Not free. Once the exporter receives the authorization, the item(s) can be shipped. The US exporter will probably charge for the export paperwork.
 
good example here guys

the U.S does check OUTGOING mail

this is why we all need to follow the rules and use exporters with the proper permits

if your unsure call the us state department YOURSELF

canada customs cant help you with us export controls/laws
 
So once a retailer has an export permit; i wonder how long its good for (?)
tiriaq said:
You apply to the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade for an International Import Certificate. (DFAIT, IIC). You can do this on line. Free. Send this to the licenced US exporter. The exporter will apply to US Department of State or Department of Commerce, as the case may be, for an export permit. Not free. Once the exporter receives the authorization, the item(s) can be shipped. The US exporter will probably charge for the export paperwork.
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ViktorF said:
So once a retailer has an export permit; i wonder how long its good for (?)
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Generally the DSP-5 Export License could be valid for "up to 48 months" however, since it will expire on the day following the IIC expiry date, and since Canada only issues the IIC's for a period of 12 months, the DSP-5 will end up being valid for about 9 or 10 months from date of approval. The reason for this is that it will usually take 4 to 8 weeks (can be longer) from the date the IIC was issued until the DSP-5 is approved and that time period comes right off the top so to speak.

Having said all of that... the permit is for a specific list of items and for specific quantities of each item and values of each item... so once those quantities and values have been used up the permit is no longer usable (whether that happens in one shipment 2 weeks after approval or several shipments over several months).

Lastly... the permit is ONLY valid for the one end-user named in the permit... so if an exporter gets an IIC from you for 1 XYZ rifle showing you as the end-user, then the exporter can only export that many rifles... only that specific make and model rifle... only up to the value total specified in the permit... and only to the end-user named in the IIC and the DSP-5. All of that must occur prior to the license expiry date and must be done in observance of the PROVISO's (restrictions) identified on the DSP-5.

Hope this answers your question.

Mark
 
company list

It sure would be handy if there were a list of companies with the required paperwork in place on here. Am I dreaming or does it already exist??
 
What you should always do if you're buying anything from the US that is gun-related is phone up PMDDTC at the State Dept. and simply ask them if it requires a DSP-83 and DSP-5 for export. If it requires a Commerce Dept. licence they will refer you. It takes about five minutes to do this and it will save you so much hassle.

Everytime on this forum and elsewhere I see people try and explain the export procedure but it changes frequently - for example someone has posted in this thread about a $100 export limit, well there was a $500 limit contained in an appropriations bill a few years ago. Also as pointed out, anything that ATF doesn't like or the US military uses seems to suddenly become "significant military equipment", so that list can literally change on a daily basis, I've had it happen to me. AR-15 accessories are good examples, what is a part of a sporting rifle one day suddenly becomes SME when the USG buys a few.

Not only that but there are international conventions that can come into play, which is where the ban on the export of anything with "5.56mm" or "7.62mm" stamped on them came from, because it was decided that those should be govt to govt only.

Phone them and ask, it's simple. Get it from the horse's mouth.

I actually know the guy who drafts the regulations that are sent through Congress every once in awhile that implement the AECA provisions, and even he can't say what PMDDTC will consider to require an export licence. If the guy who wrote the regulations doesn't know, no-one else will but them.

If you don't get hold of them, I can guarantee CBP will...
 
Miraclejoe said:
Last month I bought a UBR from a guy in the states. I know all about ITAR but never thought about checking if the stock was part of it. I've seen enough for sale around here and other places to think it was just fine.

Now custom confiscated it on the way out and I might as well forget about the money I paid for it, which is really nothing compared with the thought of the shipper going to jail over the whole thing.

Anyone has any thoughts on this?
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So in a nutshell you are aware of ITAR reg's but went ahead with this transaction regardless?

Your next vacation to a US destination could be very interesting.......
 
EDX2308 said:
People let me send a clear message out there, if the item is in the ITAR list, PLEASE be very careful to NOT import that item in even though the shipper doesn't know of the regulation. I personally don't want to hear about some guy/woman who is going to jail for selling minor firearms accessories.

The reason for the rule is not that stupid. I asked a close family friend who told me the regulations are in place because US soldiers had encountered terrorist in foreign countries that had things exported to them by "neighbouring countries" that the US was willing to ship to. Now the US is being paranoid over it and if Canada was in that situation, I think the same regulation "may" happen.

Back on topic, I don't think there is anything you can do about it MiracleJoe, I only hope the stock returns to the seller and you manage to get a refund. I'd rather the stock get confiscated then have agents come knocking on your door or worse, put the unsuspecting seller in a jail cell.
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It's not "neighbouring countries". The stuff the bad guys have mostly gets shipped out of the US. ITAR has been in place for along time, but it wasn't until Sept. 11th that the US started to enforce it.
 
EDX2308 said:
According to ITAR (stands for International Traffic in Arms Regulation) is basically a stupid rule where the US is NOT allowed to export hmm.. here's the list that "I" have found out personally as I wanted to get a few parts down south:

Dot Sights (Eotech and Aimpoint)
Anything that has nighvision/thermal amplifications
Scopes
Firearms (of course)
Firearm parts (vertical grips, buttstocks)
Ammo and Magazines

There's without a doubt a few other things I have failed to mention. Now what CAN get across the border

Knives (non switchblade/butterfly)
Scope Mounts
AR rails (I managed to get one by some shipper who labelled the item as "camping tools")
Scope Covers?
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I was handed a list in Kesselring's (Washington State) of items I could not buy....I could buy a scope as long as it didn't say "Tactical" on the packaging or on the scope itself. Any item that was labelled "Tactical" was verboten.
I tried to order some BBQ parts for my Weber from the US a while back....guess what....the parts are on the prohibited list as well.
 
Miraclejoe said:
To be clear: The stock was confiscated by US custom and he received a letter stating they were thinking of sending him to jail.

After getting a few more details it looks like nothing will likely come of it, but the guy is holding his breath for a bit.
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After reading through this thread, my initial thoughts are that the seller is scamming you and using ITAR as an excuse. When an item is shipped from the US it is transited through whatever postal service you used and turned over to Canada Customs. It does not go through US customs. Canada customs ensures that the item is not on the prohibited list, and once that is confirmed,they are only concerned with collecting the appropriate duty. They are tax collectors with guns and that's it. Nine times out of ten, when they hold an item, it's because the value is not appropriately listed and they are trying to figure out how much to tax you. This happens when people declare the items as gifts on their US Customs forms, or list a low value and then insure the item for 10x the listed value.

If for some reason US customs was doing spot checks, or was specifically targeting the seller, then both seller and buyer should have received a letter in the mail outlining the seizure. I'm guessing that US customs does not run $100,000 surveillance and interception operations to get a $200 UBR off the certified ranges of Canada.

Miracle Joe, I challenge you to do the following:

1. Request a copy of the letter from the seller. A scan can be emailed to you, as can a photograph.

2. Post the letter in this forum with the sellers personal information edited out.

Also, if anyone can post a single specific example of a person in Canada, or the US, who has been charged for violating ITAR for an individual item, or small quantity of personal items, I'd like to hear it. I'm not saying that CGN members should not respect ITAR, but the fear mongering on this site, sometimes gets a little excessive.
 
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#### Proenneke said:
After reading through this thread, my initial thoughts are that the seller is scamming you and using ITAR as an excuse.
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I'd be suspicious too. US Customs aren't generally in the habit of scanning outgoing mail. The easy way to know would be if the seller gave you a tracking number. If they did, and the tracking site says that the item was seized by customs, then they're obviously on the level, otherwise, I'd call it into question.
 
The item was bought from a seller on another forum and the mods on the other forums were notified of the situation a while ago, since someone else told me pretty much what you just outlined.

I'll keep everyone posted of where this is going...
 
ive had parcels opened from us customs (jeep parts and such nothing bad)

IF us customs did grab it YOU will get a letter saying they have it and believe you have intrests in said item


they dont normally search outging mail BUT maybe the box was dammaged/open lable fell off ect and it got extra attention cause of it....
 
The guy said he is moving and everything is packed. He said he would send it once he is settled in.

Which means nothing and I find suspicious that someone is moving mid month.
 
This sounds super sketchy.

How did you pay? Can you dispute the transaction with your credit card/(FRAUD ALERT)/whatever?
 
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