I've been meaning to ask...

kafka73623

kafka73623

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While I was posting questions here, and getting excellent inputs by the way, I have ran into another, different question.
Certain firearms have different length. Say, AR15 in 16" heavy barrel, with stock fully deployed, will measure in around 35". M1A measures at 44 1/3", not counting SOCOM model, which measures at 37.25".
All in all, measurements between these rifles don't differ too much. I mean, 10inches don't mean much in terms of, say movement of shooters.
What I am curious about is, does the length of the weapon have any direct effect on how it shoots? Does longer rifle makes it awkward for shooter, for instance? This might be the stupidest question ever seen on this forum, but I just wanted to know. CQB situation notwithstanding, I've seen in movies and stuff, that soldiers' firearms are always of longer variants.

Cheers.
 
Figure about 20 to 50fps per inch of barrel depending on calibers, not very important in a military role.

The sight radius is a more important issue but the use of optics negate the need of a long barrel.

A short gun is much easier and faster to use, the M4 is very popular for this reason.
 
The measurements you're asking about are all about tradeoffs. Shorter overall length will make a rifle "handier" and easier to move around. Shorter and/or heavier weight barrels will be stiffer, and therefore actually more accurate. You lose velocity with a shorter barrel though. Weight itself is a tradeoff. More weight, especially towards the muzzle, will make it harder to hold up, but will also reduce both felt recoil (push on your shoulder) and muzzle flip.

Rifles issued to soldiers are generally longer, because the assumption is that they will be doing most of their shooting outdoors where the extra length is not a hinderance. This is a philosophy that is being questioned, though, and the "state of the art" thinking right now is tending towards shorter barrels for issue rifles due to the increased emphasis on MOUT (street fighting). Not many (if any) militaries have actually caught up to this change logistically, as far as I know.
 
not a dumb question or thread at all. I'm gonna stray from the original question here and remark on the comments regarding heavier stiffer barrels giving better accuracy. You see many tactical rifles, like the robar sniper rifles that have short fat bull barrels and they are incredibly accurate, i think there is a tactical blaser in this config as well. I shoot a 7mm rem mag that has a 26 inch standard type barrel but has a BOSS system installed. this is a counter weight to dampen barrel vibration for super tight groups and to redirect muzzle blast to dampen recoil. I have shot a robar bull barrel, i believe it was 19 inches of fat barrel shooting 300 win mag. felt recoil was lower than expected and the accuracy blew my mind. I'm thinking a bull barrel would allow me to shorten up my hunting rifle as it measures some 28 inches past the action to the muzzle end of the boss and still achieve the accuracy that the boss enables.
any thoughts? I see an advantage to a more compact rifle both tactically and out gunning for bigger game where you often are beatin bush and in relatively close confines that the bush gives.
 
So, a soldier, or any shooter for that matter, carrying a let's say FN P90 can performe just as well as say, M16? Not giving away anything, like accuracy?
If you lose velocity of, say 500 fps, it does not pose any significant difference in accuracy? Then higher fps contributes as to what?

If that is so, I wish Conservative can make rilfes like SOCOM 16 a non-rest, again. I've herad that long time ago in Canada, it was leagal even to carry AR15 out in the bush.
I rather like the look of SOCOM 16 with Sage stock :) although it'd be a high time when I will be able to affrod one...
 
Can I add a question...

In regards to the Collapsing stocks and super short barrels (7.5") does the minimum overall length of 26" still need to be maintained on a Restricted?

Also... would a Flash hider count as OAL even if the FH can be removed (or does it need to be welded on).

I am getting a 7.5" barrel and I want to make sure I address any "Prohibited" issues that may come up; I was thinking of putting a rubber stop in the stock to keep it from closing all the way (and keep it above 26") if that is required.

So...

Do I need to worry or not. Thanks.
 
McMillan's MFS-14 is collapsing stock, right? One more question then. Is MFS-14 stock compatible with Knight's Armament Rail system for M1A? Would Knight's rail fit AFTER installing MFS-14? I'm just asking cause McMillan's stock doesn't seem to have rail mounts on top, only on the sides and the bottom.
 
kafka73623 said:
If you lose velocity of, say 500 fps, it does not pose any significant difference in accuracy? Then higher fps contributes as to what?
Click to expand...

Higher fps contributes to a flatter trajectory and greater range.

Mild loads with less fps produce greater accuracy, but I am not sure if the same would apply full power loads shot through a short barrel ?? Barrels of 26" in length are usually considered to be about the optimum length to utilise the charge in full power rifles, shorter barrels just waste it and give more muzzle blast because of this.
 
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G37 said:
Can I add a question...

In regards to the Collapsing stocks and super short barrels (7.5") does the minimum overall length of 26" still need to be maintained on a Restricted?
Click to expand...

An AR-15 is restricted by name. Those overall lengths do not apply. It becomes prohibited when modifying a non-restricted to an overall length of less than 660mm. A restricted is a restricted is a resticted. You can muck around with their sizes all you want and not have to worry about it being prohibited.

Also... would a Flash hider count as OAL even if the FH can be removed (or does it need to be welded on).
Click to expand...

A permanently attached flash hider will count for overall length, but does nothing for barrel length.
 
could someone list the length of non-rest, rest, and prohivitive? I'm getting a little confused. Are the lengths the only thing that determines the status of firearm?
 
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/info_for-renseignement/factsheets/r&p_e.asp

According to the Criminal Code, a restricted firearm is:

* a handgun that is not a prohibited firearm;
* a semi-automatic, centre-fire rifle or shotgun with a barrel length less than 470 mm (18.5 inches) that is not prohibited;
* a rifle or shotgun that can fire when its overall length is reduced by folding, telescoping or some other means to less than 660 mm (26 inches);
* any firearm prescribed as restricted (including some long guns).

The Criminal Code states that a prohibited firearm is:

* a handgun with a barrel length of 105 mm (4.1 inches) or less;
* a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 25 or 32 calibre ammunition;
* a rifle or shotgun that has been altered to make it less than 660 mm (26 inches) in overall length;
* a rifle or shotgun that has been altered to make the barrel length less than 457 mm (18 inches) where the overall firearm length is 660 mm (26 inches) or more;
* an automatic firearm and a converted automatic firearm;
* any firearm prescribed as prohibited.
Click to expand...
 
A factor coming into play with AR derivatives in 5.56 is that as the barrel gets pistol short - like the 10.5's and such, velocity seems to be getting so low that the cartridge is losing its terminal effectiveness. Not that we would notice on a paper target, but given that such shorties are supposedly a 'tactical' modification, it is at least theoretically of interest that such barrels may be compromising the shooter by leaving "shoot-back" targets shooting back. Since USSF operators out of Afganistan were the driving force behind the 6.8 SPC, as they felt the 5.56 was leaving too many CQB shootees shooting, dropping your muzzle velocity even more seems, well, go ahead, because Item targets NEVER shoot back.
 
So, in S/A firearm line, anything shoter than standard length M1A is restricted, right? And since anything that can be folded shoter than 660mm, having McMillan or any other stock can turn non-rest M1A into restricted? Am I getting this correctly?
 
Getting there...

660mm isn't all that big. Most S/A rifles and shotguns with barrels of 470mm will have enough receiver on them to bring them up to 660mm with even a pistol grip or folding stock on them.

If it comes manufactured with an overall length shorter than 660mm, it is restricted. If you take a non-restricted and reduce it yourself by changing the stock or barrel to take down below the required lengths it doesn't just become restricted, it actually becomes prohibited.
 
So, then could S/A Scout Squad Rifle be non-rest, with it's 18" barrel?
I'm sorry if I'm asking too much questions. I'm a little slow with figures...
 
kafka73623 said:
So, then could S/A Scout Squad Rifle be non-rest, with it's 18" barrel?
I'm sorry if I'm asking too much questions. I'm a little slow with figures...
Click to expand...

No, because there is another rule that says the barrel cannot be shorter than 18.5" on Semi's - Restricted if from factory. Prohibited is you cut it shorter.

Basically if you buy a Restricted Rifle you are always going to be Restricted unless you EXTEND the barrel and have it re-verified (However, if it is Restricted by name (i.e. AR) you are screwed)).

If you buy Non-Restricted you cannot do anything that will make it appear "Restricted" because in fact t will become "Prohibited".
 
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Oh~ Gotcha. So if I get a S/A Scout Squad, and extend the barrel by 0.5", don't know how, and re-verify it through, don't who, then I can have a non-rest Scout Squad.

Non-rest ---> Prohibited
Rest -------> Non-rest
AR ---------> Screwed

OK. Got it now. Thanks Mike K & G37
 
Yeah, except you need an entire new barrel. You can't weld on a Flash Hider because that only affects OAL only. To re-adjust the actual barrel length to the legal limit (18.5") you need rifling - i.e. A NEW BARREL.

S/A Scout Squad 18" to 18.5" Not worth it IMHO - A big chunk of money will go to that new barrel never mind the old one you won't use any more.
 
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