Jacketed or Mono Bullet ? - The bang Flop Factor

Pathfinder

Pathfinder

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Ive always used a cup and core or bonded Jacketed bullet and ive hardly ever been left wanting. I have to say ive always wanted to try the copper monoliths and Now I have the oppertunity (I have a load worked up and sighted in). What are the opinions on on the bang flop factor when using a Barnes TSX type bullet versus a tradional bullet. Personally Ive always felt it had more to do with shot placement but like I always say "Ill try anything once" .
 
Bullet construction does play a major part in adding to the kill factor. I don't think you would see much of a difference between using a Nosler Partition, or a Barnes TSX bullet. They are both premium bullets that open fast & retain a great majority of their weight. IMHO velocity is one of the main factors in the "bang flop". For me, the main reason to use copper mono-metal bullets was to remove the lead equation from my hunts. I have been using Barnes TSX bullets in my .270 for the last 5 years or so. I handload 130gr bullets with a velocity of 3000 fps. Most of my deer kills have been bang flops with one exception. I shot a six point buck from approx 100 yrds, almost broadsides, slightly quartering, through the front right shoulder, bullet exited just behind the left shoulder. The right shoulder was shattered, lungs turned to jello, but he still ran 60 yrds! Each shot is unique, each animal different. JMHO.
 
Pathfinder; I have used both extensively and have shot many head of game as I'm sure you're aware from my posts. I agree that bang/flop kills are produced by shot placement, one thing about the homogenous bullets is that they do everything a c+c bullet will do and then penetrate further. As far as being better that a Swift A-frame I doubt it. They do work exceptionally well on very heavy boned animals, like the 2 giraffe I just shot and the bongo, but better than an A-frame, I don't know. The one thing I do like is no nose deformation in the magazine. I just fired something in excess of 12 shots with the same 3 cartridges in the magazine of my .375 with stiff loads and 270 gn TSX, took them out at the end of the hunt and you couldn't tell them from new in the box. My preferance is Accubonds or A-frames but these new homogenous bullets do work and a few of my rifles prefer them to ABs or A-Fs. The 375 refered to earlier shoots 3/4" 3 shot groups at 100 mtrs everytime I do everything right, with the 270 gn TSX. I can't find another bullet or load that shoots as well. I also like this bullet when I'm hunting in elephant country as I have faith that I could bean an elephant with this and get enough penetration to kill him/her, I'm not sure I could count on an AB or A-F to do the same.
To sum it all up, they're no better on thin skinned game but they are every bit as good.
As an aside I got 6 bang/flops and 4 travelled less than 50 yds in Africa with that 270 TSX just last month and bang/flops are much less frequent on African game than here. (spined 3 of them though)
 
The bullet is one one part of many variables that contribute to bang/Flop. To suggest that it is the only factor would be ignorant. I have just as many bang/flops with mono bullets as I do with copper clad bullets. Its my opinion that placement is a larger factor than the bullet itself. Deer are quite thin skinned and its easy to have a through and though shot in the center of the boiler maker. I prefer to take out a front leg with a chest shot since there is little meat on it anyways. Its better to lose 5 pounds of stringy leg meat than spend the whole day looking for an animal with a possibility of losing the all the meat. Mono bullets from my experience do more for larger animals such as moose and elk, than does for deer.

If you've work up a good load that shoots well, then stick with it. Shooting confidence plays a big factor in hunting and animal/meat recovery.
 
Thanks guys. in this case (Deer) penetration should be a total either way unless its a head on shot. Im going to go with the TSX because they will be moving fast (MV around 3400-3500fps) and some of the shots are inside 100 yards. I dont' lose sleep over the lead poisoning issue but the less of that stuff I eat the better. Hopefully I can post a positive follow up in a few weeks.
 
The state of mind of the animal has more to do with "bang flops" than does the structure of the bullet, and the placement of the shot has more to do with it than both of the others combined.
 
stubblejumper said:
Just curious why you are considering the TSX ,rather than the TTSX? If anything, the TTSX expands more rapidly.
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I agree with stubblejumper on this point in smaller calibers than .375 I usually opt for the TTSX 'cause I like the increased BC and the pretty tips, performance is the same as far as I can tell. The TTSX may open quicker but peretration seem to be about equal.
 
Pathfinder said:
ok, I guess Ill have to chance it...my other 100gr. options are the Sierra sp as mentioned above or a Hornady Interlock...could get messy.
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I think that's pretty fast to expect an Interlock to hold up. I've only used the Sierra gameking on paper and I have found the accuracy to be mediocre.
 
thebigslide said:
I think that's pretty fast to expect an Interlock to hold up. I've only used the Sierra gameking on paper and I have found the accuracy to be mediocre.
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yeah I too thinkits outside its design envelope... and The Sierra bullet is not a Gameking, its a plain flat base which I believe to be the Pro-Hunter which should be tougher than a gameking not sure what exact specs are as far expansion. Sent Sierra an email.
 
As others have already stated, the bang-flops are not necessarily related to bullet construction.
I have seen animals with terrific internal tissue damage that should have dropped on the spot
run 100 yards, while others with apparently lesser damage drop right where they stood.

If you hit the spine, they will drop.

Heart/lung shots are deadly, but sometimes the animal takes
a short dash before it gets the message.

Some animals seem to act a bit differently to a shot in the vitals.
Take moose, for example. I have shot a number of moose through the lungs
and had them just stand there as if nothing happened.
Then, within 10-15 seconds, they go to take a step and just tip over, dead.

My WT deer this year, slightly angled away at 160, shot high through the lungs, bullet
exited through the back edge of the shoulder blade...still ran 40 yards, died in mid-stride.

There is absolutely no way to predict what an animal will do at the shot unless he suffers a CNS hit.

Regards, Eagleye.
 
Eagleye said:
There is absolutely no way to predict what an animal will do at the shot unless he suffers a CNS hit.

Regards, Eagleye.
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True.

Another story. I watched through my own scope as my partner shot a white tail buck at about 150 yards using a .30-06 and 165 grain Ballistic Tips. At the first shot, which I saw hit behind the shoulder, the deer didn't react at all. Just stood there. Second shot, he just stood there. We waited a few seconds because I saw that shot hit too, and then my partner shot the third. No reaction. The deer finally decided it was time to walk away, but after about 5 yards he just dropped dead. All three shots were into the chest in a group no more than 5 inches wide. His heart and lungs were absolutely mush, but he showed no reaction at all until he dropped dead. Large spray of deer parts in the snow on the off side where he had stood and simply absorbed the three shots.

Another deer shot with a .270 and 150 grain Ballistic Tips at about 70 yards through the chest immediately ran as only a scared deer can run. He was about 75 yards from the nearest trees, and he made that distance in very few seconds, and then ran head on into a large tree at full speed. He was obviously so dead already that he was blind, but he was still running very well. Never moved from the base of the tree, not even a twitch. The shot had destroyed all the major arteries and the lungs above the heart and exited. His path left a 3 foot fan of blood on the snow on the off side from every heartbeat as he ran, but he ran.

I never expect a bang/flop. No caliber or bullet I have ever used, or seen used, can be relied upon to drop an animal on the spot.
 
Pathfinder said:
ok, I guess Ill have to chance it...my other 100gr. options are the Sierra sp as mentioned above or a Hornady Interlock...could get messy.
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I posted this on a different thread, but John Barsness turned me onto 100gr Hornady Spire Points. He has used the with good results out of his .257 Wby on deer. They are tough little bullets. I have only used them in the .250 Savage, but given JB's praise I would try them in just about any .25 caliber chambering.
 
Eagleye said:
There is absolutely no way to predict what an animal will do at the shot unless he suffers a CNS hit.

Regards, Eagleye.
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I also agree with this. An interesting theory is that the blood pressure in the brain at the moment of impact/hydrostatic shock through the lungs is a factor in bang-flops. For example, if the blood pressure is at the peak during the spike in pressure due to hydrostatic shock, it may rupture capillaries in the brain, causing instant incapacitation.

Whether this is true or not, I don't know. But it is an interesting idea.
 
1899 said:
I also agree with this. An interesting theory is that the blood pressure in the brain at the moment of impact/hydrostatic shock through the lungs is a factor in bang-flops. For example, if the blood pressure is at the peak during the spike in pressure due to hydrostatic shock, it may rupture capillaries in the brain, causing instant incapacitation.

Whether this is true or not, I don't know. But it is an interesting idea.
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Interesting indeed...Ive never been able to reproduce HS but Ive never hit an animal with any serious speed..maybe around 3000fps or a little under. Most of my thinking was brought on by a few who noted that animals hit had more tendency to wander off after getting hit by a Barnes TSX as opposed to a cup and core. (when comparing boiler room hits).
 
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