-I must dig out my MkI & check the pin. I noticed it had a steel pin instead of the bronze one it should have had, but at the moment I can't recall if it is split or solid. I was interested in a Canadian Martini and hadn't seen any decent MkIII's for a reasonable price for a long while, so jumped at the MkI when I had the chance. I'd always just assumed that the bronze one had been replaced later in service and never considered the possibility of it being any earlier pattern. Considering what I paid at the auction, I'm not too worried about the pin. Otherwise, it looks as it should (sling swivels, action markings, checkered buttplate, etc.). There are no 'DC' markings; the only Canadian ownership indicator being the RMC stamp & rack number. I must remember to check out the cocking indicator as well.
Just bought me a M-1878 Martini-Henry 577/.450 ---- It Arrived -----UPDATED
- Thread starter Pblatzz
- Start date
Wow!! Now, how do I deal with all of these questions and statements from such an "encyclopedic" mind? Grant, some day I hope to meet you as we have conversed so many times by postings or e-mails. My Mk.1 is not marked with a "DC". It is, according to experts....one of the Canadian shipment due to it's serial number and date stamp on the barrel and the abscense of the safety catch cutout. Now for my weak mind.....I cannot quote where I read about the axis pin originally being steel and then being changed to bronze. It is clear in my mind that there had been some problems with the pin and with the keeper screw and men in the field who monkeyed with it and lost the keeper screw so...the powers to be changed to a split bronze axis pin, curing both problems. That is the extent of my memoriess. We have kind of "highjacked" this posting from it's originator...Pblatzz so I will not post my pic here but will send it on to your e-mail address. By the way the only mark on my rifle is an "RG" stamped into the top of the butt stock in front of the butt plate tang. I wish it was marked "RMC" and a rack number.....Dave
Smoothbore75 and Dave -
Part of the point I was trying to make (.... admittedly in my usual, overly-verbose fashion .....
) ) is that, to my knowledge, there never was a split bronze pin, nor a solid (i.e. un-split) steel pin, on any of the approved patterns of Martini-Henry .....
Part of the point I was trying to make (.... admittedly in my usual, overly-verbose fashion .....
) ) is that, to my knowledge, there never was a split bronze pin, nor a solid (i.e. un-split) steel pin, on any of the approved patterns of Martini-Henry .....Split Bronze/gunmetal pivot pins were indeed used on the very first Martini's and few exist today. The early Mk.1 guns had them along with a solid bronze/gunmetal pin and a locking screw as per cocking indicator. They are out here but VERY rare.
Airwolf - just to clarify a bit .... Snider-Enfields were the primary-issue rifles of Canada's military continuously from their arrival in 1867 until we re-armed with the magazine Lee-Enfield rifle in 1896-97. So it wasn't a case of "switching" to the Snider (which wouldn't make sense, since it was the more obsolete design) ..... rather, it was a case of deciding not to issue the Martini-Henry rifles which had been acquired, thus leaving our militia forces armed with the Snider-Enfield.
I have a pretty nice Canadian-marked ("D.C. in diamond" property stamp) Mk III rifle from the 1885 purchase -
Canada had acquired 2,100 Mark I Martin-Henry rifles some years earlier, in 1874 - most of which were also never issued (one notable exception being the 100 or so rifles issued to the Royal Military College.) Interestingly, these 1873-dated Mark I rifles were produced before the final specifications for the Mark I had been finalized (in 1874), after which the British War Department directed that all previously issued rifles be returned to be altered to the final specifications ... which included replacing the early bronze breechblock hingepin with a steel pin. Because the Canadian Mark I rifles had simply been squirreled away in Stores, they were never "upgraded" under this directive, and thus constitute the majority of unaltered early Mark I Martini-Henry rifles left in the world.
I recently acquired one of these Mark I rifles, as well -
Sweet!..I know I could count on you to clarify things.....
Interesting, indeed .... I could not clarify from any of my references what it was that the solid bronze pin (with keeper screw) recommended by the Final Trials Report of February 1871 was replacing. I had speculated it might have been a steel pin, but I gather from what you are saying that they may have tried a split bronze pin first in some of the Trials rifles (i.e. "First Pattern Mark I") but settled on a solid bronze pin briefly before finally adopting the split steel pin of the Third or "Approved" pattern of Mark I the specifications of which were published in the List of Changes in July 1874 ....
Now I am wondering if they also tried an un-split steel pin retained by a keeper in some of the early Trials Mark I rifles and, if so, if perhaps that is what Dantforth has ....
Just as today, the decision whether of not to make a major change like adopting a new general issue rifle didn't rest with the Generals - and certainly not with Colonels at the Battalion level. [At that time, individual Canadian Militia units were called 'Battalions', not being designated as 'Regiments' until a general re-naming in 1900.] Rather, any such significant change was (and still is) a political decision made at the Departmental level or higher i.e. by the Minister of Militia & Defence, under the direction of the Privy Council (Cabinet).
Essentially, the real reason Canada's Militia continued using Snider-Enfield rifles was the all-too-familiar unwillingness of the Government to commit to significant military expenditure - such as would have been necessary to re-arm the Militia with Martini-Henry rifles.
In fact, ongoing supply of Snider-Enfield ammunition became a problem after Britain had switched to the Martini-Henry. In 1878, Major-General Selby Smyth (Commanding General of the Militia of Canada, 1874-1880) reported that the reserve of Snider ammunition was down to only 160 rounds per rifle, and that it would become increasingly difficult to obtain from Imperial stores. In 1880, when no source of ammunition had yet been become available in Canada, he recommended either establishment of a government cartridge factory or that the Militia be completely rearmed with the Martini-Henry. David Edgecombe, in "Defending the Dominion, Canadian Military Rifles, 1855-1955" rather wryly states: "As it was less expensive to build a cartridge factory than to re-arm, the Government opted for the factory which opened in October 1882."
After that, of course, supply of ammunition was no longer a problem ..... which in turn was a major factor in Canada retaining the very obsolete Snider-Enfield as its primary-issue military rifle until the late 1890's.
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Another reason for the limited number of Martinis not being used to equip entire militia units was politics. There were Grit and Tory units. Prime Minister Mackenzie was also a militia officer as were many other MPs. Equipping Conservative but not Liberal or vice versa would have created assertions of favouratism and patronage.
For what it may be worth, the only documented issue of Martini-Henry rifles to any Canadian Militia unit for active service was to 'C' Company of the Infantry School Corps (which was the infantry component of Canada's very small full-time 'Permanent Militia', later becoming the Royal Canadian Regiment) for their deployment in the West during the North West Rebellion in 1885.
It was stated by the authors of "Prairie Fire: The 1885 Northwest Rebellion" published in 1984 that: "Only enough Martini-Henry's could be obtained to equip one company of the 90th Winnipeg Rifles immediately." However, apparently no documentation whatsoever exists to support this clear suggestion that M-H rifles were issued to them. Indeed, the logistics records show that only 3,000 rounds of Martini-Henry ammunition were provided to the Supply Officer of the expedition for re-supply purposes. Since the deployed strength of 'C' Co. of the infantry School Corps was 89 (4 officers and 85 Other Ranks) that quantity of cartridges would have represented a reserve of only about 35 rounds per rifle for that unit alone (less, if officers were also issued rifles.) That much reserve ammunition would have been ludicrously inadequate if a Company of the 90th also had Martini-Henry rifles.
At any rate, the rifles that did get issued almost certainly came from the 2,100 Mk I rifles already in stores, since the Mark III rifles so urgently ordered from Britain did not arrive at Halifax until late April. Edgecombe notes that Privy Council approval for the purchase was not granted until 12 May .... and one must speculate that it was only been granted grudgingly, at best, and likely with considerable annoyance, since it was already a ''done deal' - which in turn may have contributed to the reluctance of the Cabinet to actually issue the rifles ....
It was stated by the authors of "Prairie Fire: The 1885 Northwest Rebellion" published in 1984 that: "Only enough Martini-Henry's could be obtained to equip one company of the 90th Winnipeg Rifles immediately." However, apparently no documentation whatsoever exists to support this clear suggestion that M-H rifles were issued to them. Indeed, the logistics records show that only 3,000 rounds of Martini-Henry ammunition were provided to the Supply Officer of the expedition for re-supply purposes. Since the deployed strength of 'C' Co. of the infantry School Corps was 89 (4 officers and 85 Other Ranks) that quantity of cartridges would have represented a reserve of only about 35 rounds per rifle for that unit alone (less, if officers were also issued rifles.) That much reserve ammunition would have been ludicrously inadequate if a Company of the 90th also had Martini-Henry rifles.
At any rate, the rifles that did get issued almost certainly came from the 2,100 Mk I rifles already in stores, since the Mark III rifles so urgently ordered from Britain did not arrive at Halifax until late April. Edgecombe notes that Privy Council approval for the purchase was not granted until 12 May .... and one must speculate that it was only been granted grudgingly, at best, and likely with considerable annoyance, since it was already a ''done deal' - which in turn may have contributed to the reluctance of the Cabinet to actually issue the rifles ....
Well, it's here.......
It's a M1878 design.. Made in Nepal.
Well, Lots of dings, Black wood, Rust, pitting, grime & coruption....
I have taken the rifle part, very interesting design, barrel contour is different and is actually heavier than the British barrel. Pitting under the barrel and along the sides. I will measure tomorrow after I clean the 1/2 lb of rust off of the work table in the shop. I actually have a pit scale to measure the depth of the pits.
The action is more like a MkI / MkII / Mk III, and a bit of innovation. Who am I kidding, looks like a Mk1, but not... One screw and you can pop the whole block/trigger/leverl group out in one assembly. Barrel bands are very pitted and may need to be replaced. Only Nepalese markings on the action and the under side of the barrel.
The bore….. Near perfect. (Can’t get over that with the overall cond).
Old grease/rust/dust being removed as I write with the Evap-o-Rust. Works, will see how well....
Pete
It's a M1878 design.. Made in Nepal.
Well, Lots of dings, Black wood, Rust, pitting, grime & coruption....
I have taken the rifle part, very interesting design, barrel contour is different and is actually heavier than the British barrel. Pitting under the barrel and along the sides. I will measure tomorrow after I clean the 1/2 lb of rust off of the work table in the shop. I actually have a pit scale to measure the depth of the pits.
The action is more like a MkI / MkII / Mk III, and a bit of innovation. Who am I kidding, looks like a Mk1, but not... One screw and you can pop the whole block/trigger/leverl group out in one assembly. Barrel bands are very pitted and may need to be replaced. Only Nepalese markings on the action and the under side of the barrel.
The bore….. Near perfect. (Can’t get over that with the overall cond).
Old grease/rust/dust being removed as I write with the Evap-o-Rust. Works, will see how well....
Pete
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- Location
- Algoma region
How awesome!!
The evapo rust is definately going to do the trick
Let that beauty soak over night and she will come out of the trough rust free.
The rifle looks complete thats 1/2 the battle there.
Looking foward to see her after the derusting!!
Cheers
The evapo rust is definately going to do the trick
Let that beauty soak over night and she will come out of the trough rust free.
The rifle looks complete thats 1/2 the battle there.
Looking foward to see her after the derusting!!
Cheers
- Location
- Algoma region
Try a little heat and a scraper, maybe put the oven on ultra low and put the wood on a roasting pan.
Might even help if you put a little linseed oil "unmixed raw" on the stock while shes heating up.
Then its going to be elbow greese steel wool and alcohol
Cheers
Might even help if you put a little linseed oil "unmixed raw" on the stock while shes heating up.
Then its going to be elbow greese steel wool and alcohol
Cheers
