Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
[Youtube]dcxffmvMFYw[/Youtube]
Just for you 10/22 Tacitcal guys.....
- Thread starter Clobbersauras
- Start date
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
My apologies, I didn't see it.
He makes some good points. I thought it was going to be another inexperienced mall ninja who thinks his ### little setup should replace the current inventory of US military small arms. Practicing with .22lr is a great way to keep those on a budget at the range shooting, rather than saving up for range days.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
I didn't see anything that was absurd in that class. Actually, there was so little footage of the class I find it odd that you even commented on it.
Muzzles down during reloads, using the charging handle for emergency reloads, very low ready position, etc. Just old stuff that really has no place in a tactical carbine class. Keeping the rifle/pistol up in your workspace is critical to running your gun in an actual tactical situation. Look at the guy in the back having a hell of a time indexing his mags in, imagine him trying to make that happen while moving with the rifle way down there.
Otherwise the guy talking is fairly spot-on. Indeed if you are running an AK/SKS platform then the 10/22 makes a great trainer, both have pretty similar awkward ergonomics for reloading. If you are an AR guy then a CMMG kit or upper is a better option.
-Grant
Muzzle down may be necessary depending on the situation. I agree that muzzle up has more going for it than down.
Running the charge handle is 100% effective for CHARGING the rifle. The bolt catch/release only works if it caught the bolt, not to mention not all rifles have them. Running the charge handle is also used during an immediate action, and is also used for remedial action. Limited movements that are used for multiple tasks and mastering a universal(or near universal) manual of arms keeps things simple so you can focus on what's important, making hits.
Reloading on the move is bad form and difficult at the best of times. Why would you not seek cover and focus on getting your rifle up and running, rather than fumble with both rifle and magazines while trying to remain focused on the situation as well as your whereabouts.
A dedicated rimfire AR or even an upper is by far the best tool for similarity training. However, in this country that means range use only. For many, that means static shooting at pathetic distances from either offhand or seated. Hardly a productive use of ammo or time.
TDC
#1: we will have to disagree on that. The paddle is 100% a better method on AR platforms. Faster, less prone to poor return to battery, easier with gloves as well. If you can't make the decision to use the handle for an IA maybe you should take-up golf?
#2: Not as bad form as being unable to get the gun running while keeping your eyes up. The instructor keeps telling them to get their eyes up while they fumble uselessly to get a mag in, all without any stress involved whatsoever. Get that gun up to eye level and you'd be shocked at what you can do during a reload. Personally I transition for secondary then seek cover, but if I didn't have that option you'd be damn sure I was trying to solve my problem on the move.
#3: find a better range.
-Grant
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
How do you know what level these shooters are at from 30 seconds of video? Most people need to crawl before they can run. Perhaps the instructor had them run the drill first and then tried to correct them? You are reading too much into it. I'm interested now, what courses have you taken?
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
The bolt catch/release ONLY WORKS if the bolt has been held to the rear. The fact you call it a "paddle" tells me you're a Magpul fanboy who has watched one too many videos. I won't get into a long winded bashing of what they teach, but I will say this. The Magpul Dynamics methods are geared for right handed AR shooters only. That is specialized training and not what I'm interested in. Back on topic, if you watch their videos closely, you will see a guy slap at the bolt catch then shoulder the gun, only to find out the bolt wasn't locked to the rear because he had just completed a remedial action. The release is not a better option. Its marginally faster, but its not nearly as reliable. If you're riding the charge handle you need more rounds down range and more professional training. The risk of riding the handle is no greater than the risk of missing the bolt catch or not accessing it at all.
As for making the decision between the bolt catch and the charge handle. I will introduce you to something called Hick's law. Hick's law states that for every additional option in solving a problem, you double the time required to select the appropriate action. So by having two methods of charging the rifle, you have now doubled the time it takes to get that rifle back up and running. If you always use the CHARGE HANDLE(you know, the part that serves one purpose, to charge the rifle) whenever you insert a magazine or encounter a type one stoppage(dead trigger) or any other time you wish to load the rifle, you can't choose an incorrect solution. In addition, running the charge handle works on all semi auto rifles and handguns(the slide in the case of handguns). We use the charge handle to charge/load the rifle, to clear the rifle, during an immediate action and during a remedial action. If we use the charge handle for all operations, why would we selectively choose to use the bolt catch which doesn't guarantee a charged rifle?
Like I said, the situation will dictate the tactics. Some places are not conducive to muzzle up orientation, like on ships, aircraft, in low ceiling buildings, vehicles, etc. For what its worth Paul Howe(look him up if you don't know who he is) preaches muzzle down. Again, I agree that muzzle up has more going for it than down, but either is workable. As for reloading on the move. If you broke cover and run dry, your tactics suck. If your rifle incurs a stoppage, then cover is your priority. If you have a secondary and the threat is close enough then you need to transition. I can guarantee that you can run faster and seek cover sooner if you focus on getting there, as opposed to trying to load a moving rifle while you're moving while trying to maintain situational awareness. If you can load your rifle at a full out sprint then good for you and go with it. For the majority of us who can't multi task quite that efficiently, I will stick with seeking cover to solve the problem. To be honest, you should be firing from cover whenever possible to begin with.
Do tell what range you attend that permits forward of the line movement, prone/supine shooting, facing up range loaded, drawing from a holster, running from the sling, low/no light shooting and small team tactics? Generally speaking, if the range is approved for restricted firearms, its likely indoors, and likely busy. Aside from that, fundamentals are fundamentals. Its great that a rimfire upper/rifle is nearly identical to your big bore upper/rifle. However, practicing positional shooting, transitions and several other skills does not require you use identical setups.
TDC
Clobb/TDC:
I've got over 6 years behind the AR and MP5 platforms in the CF. Over that time I've watched the evolution of gunfighting and where its going. As of RIGHT NOW there is a total push towards keeping long and side arms in the work-space for all drills, and that has come down from people with more current ops experience then you get posting on this or any forum.
If you can't use the bolt-catch reliably then you need more time running your gun.
Believe all you want, have your heroes. I will trust the people who have trained me and where they have got that training from, and it isn't Magpul.
-Grant
I've got over 6 years behind the AR and MP5 platforms in the CF. Over that time I've watched the evolution of gunfighting and where its going. As of RIGHT NOW there is a total push towards keeping long and side arms in the work-space for all drills, and that has come down from people with more current ops experience then you get posting on this or any forum.
If you can't use the bolt-catch reliably then you need more time running your gun.
Believe all you want, have your heroes. I will trust the people who have trained me and where they have got that training from, and it isn't Magpul.
-Grant
Explain how the bolt catch is a better option when there's no guarantee the bolt has locked to the rear? If you clear a stoppage and insert a magazine and the bolt catch doesn't release the bolt, what is the solution? I believe its to RUN THE CHARGE HANDLE. So if the charge handle is the guarantee go to solution, why not start there? I have a hard time believing that the time difference between using the bolt catch and running the charge handle has been the difference between life and death. Making hits is what is important, getting your gun up and running is but a small part of the operation. I and others prefer to use methods that are mostly universal across most platforms, and methods that guarantee the result you desire. The bolt catch does not guarantee a charged rifle 100% of the time whereas the charge handle does, and the charge handle is on EVERY RIFLE.
TDC
Grant TDC has provided some valid reasons why he prefers the charging handle and your responses involve him needing to run the gun more and wasn't there even something about taking up golf. TDC's thoughts are shared by Jeff Gonzales who trains SEALs to run the old handle and I've seen JTF members running the handle so not everyone in the CFs shares your view.
However I do agree with you that I would not spend money on a James Yeager course. I've watched enough of his videos on youtube to know where he fits in in the training world.
Take care
What form of stoppage are you referring to? I can't forsee a stoppage that involves the bolt being locked to the rear which you cannot then return to battery with the bolt-stop, unless you hadn't finished clearing the stoppage. Perhaps you mean after clearing a stove-pipe when some people leave the action forward (depending on weapon), but that isn't exactly a fast operation considering you have to observe the ejection-port before and after clearing anyways.
If you are referring to a failure to feed then yes, the handle is the only option. Running the handle on a load is substantially more awkward with the weapon up in the workspace, in my experience of running it in confined spaces and while moving. With the gun up the paddle is right there.
Oddly enough as much as I dislike the MP5 on the basis of ergonomics, it does have a well place charging handle for manipulating with the weapon up.
When its life and death, you drop it and go for cover or the secondary.
TacTemp: Different strokes, but the manual of arms we are using is coming on a pretty direct pipe-line from the underworld you speak of.
In regards to the video: Funny how much people pay to learn something that the military decided was crap years back.
-Grant
Grant, If running the charging handle in your work space is awkward for you then you haven't run the gun enough. HA HA J/K...Sorry man couldn't resist firing some of your ammo. But all joking aside the "power stroke" involves catching the charging handle as you are driving the gun out of your work space and back on target. It is not awkward at all. I was originally trained on the ol' slap the paddle with you palm method, then I evolved to using my thumb then about 3 years ago Gonzales switched me to the charging handle and I have never gone back. When the PACT timer comes out I am the same speed as everyone using the button on re-loads and faster then most when the dummy rounds come out because I simply have many more reps running the handle.
But hey I am absolutely not trying to convince you to switch, sounds like you are happy pushing the button and there is nothing wrong with that method if that is what you choose. TDC and I just jumped on ya cause you said one method was 100% the best way, and what you probably should have said was it was the best FOR YOU. The only thing about running an AR that is 100% is which way the bullets go in and which end points towards enemy. The rest depends on the operational use of the weapon and operator.
I'll be seeing some of those studs at the other end of your pipeline soon, I'll ask them about running the CH.
Take care brother
But hey I am absolutely not trying to convince you to switch, sounds like you are happy pushing the button and there is nothing wrong with that method if that is what you choose. TDC and I just jumped on ya cause you said one method was 100% the best way, and what you probably should have said was it was the best FOR YOU. The only thing about running an AR that is 100% is which way the bullets go in and which end points towards enemy. The rest depends on the operational use of the weapon and operator.
I'll be seeing some of those studs at the other end of your pipeline soon, I'll ask them about running the CH.
Take care brother
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22LR's Are Great
Did you know we actually have better .22LR guns laws here in Canada than many States in the U.S?
We actually have an unlimited round limit here, apparently California only has a 10 round limit.
California is a **** hole so I wouldn't compare us to them. As for the rest of the us. I wouldn't own a rimfire if I could run full capacity ar in the field.
Tdc
