K31 Vs. M39 at 100 yards

Harry Callahan

Harry Callahan

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It's been a month or so that I bought my B barrel M39 and after a good scrubbing it was time to finally clear the bore of all the cosmo residue that was left in her!

Since I was off today and a buddy wanted to go at the range descided to bring along my Swiss K31 for a little shootout at 100 yards. Only stayed a couple of hours but really enjoyed shooting these old girls. It was a first for the M39 and a little while since I took the K31 out.

Very happy with how the two performed, this particular K31 with diopters is a tack driver.

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The M39 shoots about 10 inches higher than the POA with the factory 7.3mm post and PPU 182gr FMJ ammo so had to use a sharpie pen and draw an arrow at the bottom of the target to compensate. Took a couple of shots to figure it out tho. Also adjusted the windage of the front post since it was initially shooting about 2" right of POA.

Now, I need to find a 9.1mm high front post...
 
While this is not a fair comparison (diopter sight on K31), it still illustrates that the K31 is a much superior outfit.
The late Finish M39s are way overvalued (IMHO), you can still get a K31 for half the price of a M39 Mosin Nagant.
 
Please let me know where I can get k31 rifles with aftermarket target sights for less than an m39.

Also, a k31 that the op has already practiced with, set up with target sights using gp11 vs ppu through an m39 with stock sights that are not adjusted to the crappy ppu ammo is nowhere near a fair or illustrative comparison.

I also note that if I look at the 4 best shots from the m39 and compare to the 4 shots of gp11, the group is identical.

Hmmm....
 
Claven2 said:
Please let me know where I can get k31 rifles with aftermarket target sights where did I say this? for less than an m39.

Also, a k31 that the op has already practiced with, set up with target sights That's why I said it is not a fair comparison using gp11 vs ppu through an m39 with stock sights that are not adjusted has nothing to do with the group size, does it? to the crappy ppu ammo is nowhere near a fair or illustrative comparison.

I also note that if I look at the 4 best shots from the m39 and compare to the 4 shots of gp11, the group is identical where exactly do you see a group? It rather looks like a huge pattern.

Hmmm....
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Hmmm....
 
Harry Callahan said:
The M39 shoots about 10 inches higher than the POA with the factory 7.3mm post and PPU 182gr FMJ ammo...
Now, I need to find a 9.1mm high front post...
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Yep, I have a 9mm front post sight and it's dead on with that ammo, but do not find that ammo very accurate.
2 MOA is the best I can do with issue sights and it.

Having owned a K31 they are excellent shooters even with issue sights and had gotten some good groups like you have.

As bolt action service rifles go, I consider the M39, K31 and Swede Mauser the best in accuracy.
 
polaris said:
Hmmm....
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Go read your post. You drew a clear conclusion "that the K31 is a much superior outfit." Your words, not mine.

And yes, the sights affect his group size as he had to hold 6" low and guess at aiming. He later added a marker scribble after seeing that he was not regulated, then some of his shots were to correct for a 2" windage drift.

Again, he compared a gun he hs been shooting regularly, dialled in, with high end ammo, and expensive sights to his first outing with a rifle that is not sighted in and using known marginal ammo.

Look at the 5 shots inside the bull. They are around 1MOA. For all we know, those were his last 5 shots after he was through adjusting his front post, figuring out hold-over, etc.
 
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My K31 shot .77" with open irons and .75" with a steel side mt and 6X Leupold [GP11 ammo] all my Russian 91/30's shoot tennis ball sized groups at 100 yards with many in the 1.25" -1.50" range. A 42 Tula PEM ex-sniper 3/4" with irons and PRC ball........Harold
 
sail32 said:
The targets also show that peep sights are superior to open sights, ignoring ammunition etc.

The Swiss found this out when they switched from the K-31 to the Stgw57.

http://www.swissrifles.com/pe57/#links

The comparison was done with the results new recruits produced.
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I would suggest that the targets show that the OP is more comfortable with his "tried and true" K31 rifle than he is with his new M39 using ammo the rifle is not regulated for.

Some people shoot tangent sights better than peep sights. Peep sights are likely easier to use for a majority of people though. They are more intuitive and require less training to use well.
 
sail32 said:
The targets also show that peep sights are superior to open sights, ignoring ammunition etc.

The Swiss found this out when they switched from the K-31 to the Stgw57.

http://www.swissrifles.com/pe57/#links

The comparison was done with the results new recruits produced.
Click to expand...

Grouping is just one way to measure how effective a sight is. For example with a high end diopter sight I can sure get some excellent groupings, that being said if I had to acquire a target quickly, I would be better off with my open notch sights. Its all relative to what you are doing.

In regards to saying the Swedish Mausers, M39s, and K31s shoot the best that is also debatable. Realistically most military bolt actions in excellent condition and good ammo will compare about the same for accuracy. The reality is that most milsurps were used and abused which left very few in excellent condition. Those three mentioned tended to be in great shape when released on the surplus market which in turn has lead to some great results when shooting them. I believe it was Buffdog had a thread where for a range shoot he brought out some near new condition milsurps of a variety of types and great ammo for them. They all came very close to each over (I remember it had a Mas 36, and a Brazilian M1908, but I can't recall anymore than that).

For example this is my M1907/15 French Rifle. Normally these are found with not the best bores on them, but for whatever reason mine is pretty close to new. This is the grouping I got at 100m with irons and handloads. Most milsurps in general are held back by poor quality ammo (most surplus is fairly inaccurate ammo) and poor bores (again just due to usage).



 
bigjohndatsun said:
Just suck it up and admit the K31 is the most accurate Milsurp you can aquire for the best price right now, with the the best surplus ammo you can find on the planet.
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I personally argue the Gewehr 1911 is more accurate but that is just me. I also happen to have almost every somewhat common Swiss Rifle out there (excluding the K1893) so trust me I understand what the value is one these rifles.
 
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Well gents, it's true that I have more experience with the K31 using the factory irons. The diopters were installed a few weeks ago so not much experience with them on this particular rifle, they were adjusted at my last range trip (20 rounds fired total). I took out the rifle and a 10 round pack and these were the 5 first shots fired at 100 yards, my buddy shot the last fives and still owes me a glass or two of Macallan's ;)

True that I shot a lot of diopers using other rifles tho and the K31's trigger is pretty sweet so it helps a bit.

It was the first outing of the B barrel M39 and I only have PPU 182gr ammo on hand at the moment. After sighting it properly, I couldn't shoot it better than what was shown. I had to "guess" the point of aim about 10 inches low to hit the bull but still managed to put the last 5 into less than 2 inches. It shows a bit of stringing with PPU ammo tho. I'm convinced that with the proper ammo (what it was intended to shoot), it would do the required Finnish standard of 33mm at 100 meters or less.

Unfortunatly, I didn't have any black centered targets with me that day, I know that I would have been better with those while shooting both K31 with diopter and the M39 if regulated to a 6 o'clock hold with the proper blade height.
 
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A black aiming mark makes for a better sight picture.

That is a superb group for the K31. Very impressive with iron sights.

I tack up a sheet of white paper (the back of a pistol silhouette target) and then staple on a pair of re-usable black squares.

For iron sights I take a 6 o'clock hold, with a band of white showing above the front sight. For a scope sight, I aim at each corner, 4 groups per square.

The groups are taken home to analyse by looking at the white paper. These two groups look like a SKS shoot....

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