K98 & g29/40

DiverDriver said:
Sorry, but this is some questionable logic! Your trying to tell me that people were "humping rifles since the end of the war AND MAYBE BEFORE"?!?! So that suggests Canadian, Brit and American troops were grinding and stamping captured weapons for fun between battles! Ummmm, probably not.....
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No it isn't questionable logic. In WW2 when the US made it to the the arms factories (K98), some of the GI's were assembling totally un-numbered and in the white (not blued) K98's and G33/40's and bringing them home.

This goes on for other things too like finding SS stamps and dies during WW2 and "humping" leather goods for instance and trading them with other GI's/Soldiers in the field. I heard this from my Uncle as his friend saw it happen.

The Walt Disney story (Painting Fake Sniper Helmets) is during WW1.

If there is money to be made, a humper will find the way by deceiving.
 
jbmauser said:
I agree Steve. I don't think original matching units were ever very common here.
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It becomes exactly like Gresham's Law. People will hoard their best items in their collection and sell off their lesser items. And sometimes an item will stay in a collection and not see the light of day until someone passes away, loses interest or needs the money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law
 
twincamharley said:
For the record, you probably have 4 or 5 of the most knowledgeable K-98 collectors/historians in Canada who have taken the time to reply to your post giving you advice and valuable information. They know what they are talking about !
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Agreed and noted. These guys definitely know what type font/stamp/inspectors mark go where and are light years ahead of me on K98's. I do appreciate and have thanked them (previously) for their time here. I'll be the first to admit that as for K98's I'm a newbie, but I'm not new to logic. When there's holes in that logic then (healthy) discussion, debate and research are warranted.

-I was shown two correct examples. The fonts on the receiver is different than the rest of the parts, making it correct markings... I just don't understand why? I did ask but never got an answer on that one. That's just foreign to me as on most other rifles it would send up red flags. Proving, I really don't know K98s!

-Just can't see Bubba doing his craft before the end of the war... And probably not immediately after. With the exception of converting them into sporters, because 'who cares' when you can buy them easily and cheaply. And of course humping WW1 sniper helmets, SS Gear and 'Adolf' trophies. But much less likely on standard infantry rifles.

-Further; I thank these members because I can see a lot of issues on my rifles that I did not before and I don't dispute these points. I was looking for opinions and I got'em! But as for the who/when/where and why it was done I still can't see the only explanation being Bubba-humping. My BYF for example; somebody put a lot of time and effort, a long time ago into it's re-numbering. I know at war's end Germany was prohibited from arms production for about 5 years. During that time K98's were still issued to West German Police, Border Guards etc. while stockpiles were controlled by occupying forces. So, small armorer shops had to make due with what they had on hand (there weren't new rifles and spares on the way). Maybe another explanation is that they did the best with what they had and renumbered parts themselves, albeit NOT factory spec (and not Bubba either). Just a theory, agreed. But it holds as much water as some of the other theories I've heard on similar topics. The real answer; nobody here can say for certain what was done 3/4 of a century ago.

-An earlier post says that K98's have been shipped to North America since the '50s from both East and West. Then later I'm told that matching examples were never common and that most good examples where only the Vet bring-backs (mostly in the US)... We all know that there were a great number of these rifles at the end of the conflict, some of which went to military use/inventory (Norway, Israel, Soviet Union, East & West Germany, etc). The rest sat in warehouses until sold into surplus. I still don't understand what happened to all the matching rifles while only leaving warehouses 5-10 years later?

Maybe my rifles were Bubba-humped, then maybe not? But for me, getting opinions and theories with no explanation makes it hard to take it at face value. Anyway enough about these two rifles, I know where there at for now (little nicer/better than an RC). When I get time I will do my own research before I buy another one.

Cheers and Happy New Year to all.
 
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DiverDriver said:
-I was shown two correct examples. The fonts on the receiver is different than the rest of the parts, making it correct markings... I just don't understand why? I did ask but never got an answer on that one. That's just foreign to me as on most other rifles it would send up red flags. Proving, I really don't know K98s!

-Just can't see Bubba doing his craft before the end of the war... And probably not immediately after. With the exception of converting them into sporters, because 'who cares' when you can buy them easily and cheaply. And of course humping WW1 sniper helmets, SS Gear and 'Adolf' trophies. But much less likely on standard infantry rifles.
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The war ended in certain areas before others. German people were quick to realize that the US GI loved souveniers, and accommodated them. There is documented accounts of the same facilities using wartime machine and materials to make product for GIs. As CU said, guns put together from parts, ss stamps applied, all manner of stuff done. They would get food, smokes candy in return, so in a war torn country it was lucrative business. So in a sense it did start before wars absolute end.


The receiver roll mark will be a different font. But serial numbers can change size, which affects the looks of the font, but should still be within guidlelines of what fonts were used at a given factory/timeframe.

WW2 german gear has been faked forever, and with decent skill. It is a minefield. K98k are lucrative so there is a huge market for more matching guns.

Personally I would put the flat buttplate stock on the 660 rifle, and the cupped on the byf. The cupped looks like it could be a Brunn II stock but not sure with the pics.
Just doing that makes the rifles more correct.

The byf43 could still be a refurb of official nature, yugo/czech/ddr as I have seen some done to horribly low standards. The part that makes me say this is the safety, yugo/czech/ddr guns often put only 2 digits on the safety, and Im willing to bet there were 4 digits there before. Therefore a bubba, would have likely just copied that, but 2 digits on refurbs is well known.

Hope that helps.
 
CanadianAR said:
The war ended in certain areas before others. German people were quick to realize that the US GI loved souveniers, and accommodated them. There is documented accounts of the same facilities using wartime machine and materials to make product for GIs. As CU said, guns put together from parts, ss stamps applied, all manner of stuff done. They would get food, smokes candy in return, so in a war torn country it was lucrative business. So in a sense it did start before wars absolute end.


The receiver roll mark will be a different font. But serial numbers can change size, which affects the looks of the font, but should still be within guidlelines of what fonts were used at a given factory/timeframe.

WW2 german gear has been faked forever, and with decent skill. It is a minefield. K98k are lucrative so there is a huge market for more matching guns.

Personally I would put the flat buttplate stock on the 660 rifle, and the cupped on the byf. The cupped looks like it could be a Brunn II stock but not sure with the pics.
Just doing that makes the rifles more correct.

The byf43 could still be a refurb of official nature, yugo/czech/ddr as I have seen some done to horribly low standards. The part that makes me say this is the safety, yugo/czech/ddr guns often put only 2 digits on the safety, and Im willing to bet there were 4 digits there before. Therefore a bubba, would have likely just copied that, but 2 digits on refurbs is well known.

Hope that helps.
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Thank you for your time! That is as detailed an answer as I had hoped to get here. Quite helpful!

My Grandfather mentioned doing some of the trade with Americans and Canadians after the war. Although I'm sure it happened, he never mentioned having to 'improve' anything as there was plenty to be had at the time that could trade for cash, food, smokes, fuel or whatever you needed. Just a regular business. But more relevant to the BYF I have, personally I doubt it would have been worth renumbering by the Black Market of the time and it certainly wasn't built from parts at a captured factory. If you were humping in those days, then why not throw an SS rune on it and get another 2 can of gas for it? A matching '43 BYF could be found in so many attics, cellars and closets it was a waste spend time on it.

Question for you; How was it that rifles became 'unmatched' at the end of (and during) the war, unless of course an armourer was part swapping?

I might just take your advice and swap the stocks.

Thanks again!
 
Well if it was damaged and officially repaired, it would be marked.
But there were occasions when parts were just swapped, the issue is, even if it was 100% wartime there's no way to prove it. So has to be assumed it was post war.

I don't think numbers were re stamped directly postwar in
Europe but probably not long after. And typically it would be the locals trading the stuff that was postwar made or enhanced. I doubt your standard GI enhanced anything.

Restored sporters, refurb programs, damaged or loss of parts are huge reasons for mismatched parts.
Also vast numbers of rifles were imported post war, but to circumvent import laws, guns were shipped without bolts, then considered just "parts". Bolts were shipped separately. When the two came together again, they were so cheap and plentiful that taking the time to match stuff up didn't make sense.
 
Hi DiverDriver,

For the most part, these topics and questions have been covered in depth many times already. Keep in mind, most advanced K98k collector discussion doesn't happen here on CGN but instead on K98k dedicated forums hosted in the United States.

There's a large demand for collector grade K98k rifles in Canada but not an adequate supply and most of the people seeking these rifles just simply don't have the knowledge to know what they're buying.

This might sound harsh, but a lot of falsely advertised K98k's regularly sell on this site as 'matching wartime examples' for above U.S. market value of originals. Apparently enough of our members are willing to buy without researching, and the humped up (for lack of a better term) rifles are turning large profits.

This isn't just a K98k problem, it happens with all the sought after firearms.

The only way to protect yourself is to buy the books, read the forums, and spend a few months in the research phase before dropping any money.

Start with these books and you're well on your way:

http://www.thirdpartypress.com/

The money spent on books will save you money down the road on rifles. When your ready, you might consider looking in the United States while importing is still relatively easy.

-Steve
 
Agreed, but the books. They are very in depth.
But regular forum trolling and review on known good guns should be common practice.

If I have a k98k on my radar I usually review any known good guns that are the same year and close on production.
 
Research, research, research.

We were all at the same point the op is at at one time. My first K98k was a humped up Yugo rework that I happily purchased and posted up. It was a great inexpensive learning experience and since that time I've dedicated a huge amount of time to learning and observing original K98k's, reworks, hump jobs, etc., so that I have a pretty good idea of what I'm looking at.

The books Steve linked to are excellent books. The best there are by far. They are expensive though but well worth it if you plan on collecting. Backbone of the Wehrmacht is also a good reference but be aware that it is dated and does have a lot of errors in it. A lot of good basic info in it though. Visiting the dedicated K98k forums is also an excellent way to learn.

Also anyone looking at purchasing a K98k can feel free to send me a pm. I'm not an expert by any means but will do my best to help out with any questions.
 
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