K98 Sniper listed on EE

[bryan.14]

I seen a K98 single Claw sniper listed on the EE today.

It got me wondering why the German Mausers had so many different variations Scope mounting systems (single claw, double claw, high turret, short side rail, long side rail, zf-41) , during WW2?

Why didn’t they standardize to one style Scoped Rifle like the Soviets did with the Mosin PU rifles or the British with the No4 Mk1T ???

Why didn’t many German Rifles have windage adjustable scopes?

We’re sniper rifles picked for accuracy or just standard issue?

 

[Brutus]

Need a time machine to answer your questions.

 

[can14]

Depended on the contractor
The Israeli 's did the same thing with their k98 sniper rifles.
Different contractor's used different mounts and scopes.
My two were made and equipped the same way by the same contractor

 

[CanadianAR]

With all their equipment, they continuously tweaked changed, made the next best thing. Probably why they lost.

 

[Airborn_69]

Because most rifles and optics came from different Mfg, it is hard to standardize these as well, they came from custom shops for different contracts of the German armed forces of the period. Glass too came from various sources.

They were almost a sporterized versions of the K98k, sorta a speak.

 

[Airborn_69]

Having the “book” K98k sniper variants at home, I t looks legit. The one on the E&E is however Questionable as from our friends from the US have lots more info on these, when it comes to K98k sniper rifles, there are very few to none that are legit. (Usually the soldiers ditched these rifle before capture.)

I always have a red flag on these since there is a lot of repro’s out there, even some from early post war.

What I’m saying is that rifle for sale, if legit SHOULD have matching serial#’s on the scope as well since these were made by a private contractor for the Wehrmacht or SS. Be careful if you intend to buy this collectors set up.

 

[student of history]

Bryan,

You've asked a number of very nuanced questions that I'll do my best to answer, but first, it's important to note that the double claw in the EE is not an authentic example. It's a post war re-creation and my hope is that publicly ousting it saves a potential buyer from making a HUGE mistake.

With that out of the way, there are many answers to the questions you've posed. This response will become a novel if I delve into each subject, so I'm going to have to keep this fairly general. With that in mind, the main reasons for multiple variations are as follows:

1) The variations evolved slowly overtime. When deficiencies were noted, improvements were made which then spurred the creation of additional variations (e.g. low turret to high turret AND short side rail to long side rail).

2) The Nazis developed a decentralized procurement system which set the stage for companies to compete against each other instead of working towards a common goal. This resulted in many variations and as the war progressed, it became difficult for the factories to re-tool so the German High Command allowed the variations to exist as long as the factories could meet their delivery schedules.

3) Each branch of the Wehrmacht + SS was constantly competing for resources. This meant that it was not uncommon for certain branches to independently broker side deals with various factories, which then spurred unique variations (the SS was notorious for doing this).

With respect to windage, these adjustments could typically be made from the rear mount (e.g. low / high turrets).

Regarding accuracy, the rifles were carefully selected at the factory once they had been test fired and performed favourably (i.e. they were not selected at random).

I hope this information was helpful to you. Now, I wish I could say that I owned an original double claw, but sadly I do not. I do however own an original low turret, high turret and zf41. Each example is produced by Oberdorf. Attached are a few pics for you guys to peruse.

Cheers,
SoH

Group:

High Turret:

 

[hollowedpoint]

Holy ####! That’s impressive as hell! I wish I was your bud... even if you don’t own a original double claw, that collection of sniper rifles is goddamn impressive. I couldn’t imagine the cost!

 

[55recce]

without disrespecting the owner of the one on the EE would you mind educating us on what to look for when determining what is legit and what is not? I understand that this may be a touchy subject but would welcome the exchange of knowledge. However I fully understand if you are not comfortable with going there.

 

[BMWMilhist]

From my I’ll-educated but still somewhat knowledgeable perspective, the rifle on the EE, as SoH has stated I will state with certainty that there are very real trends when it comes to sniper variaitions, And additionally when referring to specific manufacturers. J.P. Sauer supplies high turret and long side rail snipers during WWII. Some early (and rarely positively confirmed) objective mount double claw pre-WW2 snipers are claimed from multiple manufacturers, but this is neither early nor objective mount. IMO this is a fantasy piece.

My 2 cents,
BW

 

[student of history]

without disrespecting the owner of the one on the EE would you mind educating us on what to look for when determining what is legit and what is not? I understand that this may be a touchy subject but would welcome the exchange of knowledge. However I fully understand if you are not comfortable with going there.

It certainly isn't my intent to disrespect the seller, but in this circumstance, I feel that it is warranted to have an open discussion on the topic, simply to avoid an expensive fake from being passed along to an unsuspecting buyer within our community. So, with that in mind...

The rifle in the EE is an easy fake to identify, simply because J.P. Sauer never produced the double claw variation. To give you a bit of background, in the midwar period (circa 1943) the Waffen SS approached Waffenwerke Brünn A.-G. (Brünn) to manufacture a new sniper variation on their behalf (the double claw). Unfortunately for them (the SS), they quickly found out that OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht) was not going to permit Brünn to supply them with newly manufactured rifles (for the competitive reason I addressed above), and so, they were forced to send base rifles to Brünn to be retrofitted into sniper rifles. All of the period records we have indicate that the double claw snipers were primarily built out of SSZZA4 depot rifles, but there is evidence that bcd43 and byf43 rifles were also supplied.

Another important point to note is that the scope on the rifle in the EE is also incorrect and the rings are post-war civilian produced. As far as I know, double claw snipers are only found with one type of scope. It's the "dow" marked variant that was manufactured by Optikotechna GmbH. There are two sub-variants of the scope (one with an ocular adjustment ring and one without the ocular adjustment ring). Either way, the double claw snipers have never been observed with Hensoldt scopes (like the one in the EE). My high turret has a numbers matching Hensoldt scope installed, but that's a completely different story...

Anyways, I take no pleasure in the fact that the rifle is fake, but I feel that our community deserves to know, and if the mods see fit, that ad should either be removed or the seller should have to state that it's not authentic, because $12K is a lot of money to be asking for a fake.

 

[Airborn_69]

Holy ####! That’s impressive as hell! I wish I was your bud... even if you don’t own a original double claw, that collection of sniper rifles is goddamn impressive. I couldn’t imagine the cost!

Great looking for sure, just not $12000 great looking.

I am not sure how much the repro on the E&E would be worth and if a buyer takes it, would definitely not get its value back.

 

[student of history]

I am not sure how much the repro on the E&E would be worth and if a buyer takes it, would definitely not get its value back.

A clone like the one in the EE would probably fetch $2000.00 up here, but unfortunately, the seller seems to have spent much more than that on it. There’s a record of this exact rifle selling at Carol Watson’s Orange Coast Auctions (in Anaheim, California) on March 9, 2019 for $5,500.00 USD. With import and taxes, the poor guy probably has around $8000.00 CAD into it.

This is why it’s important to research prior to purchasing. Had it been original, $5,500.00 USD would have been a steal. SS double claw snipers routinely sell for $30,000.00 at major U.S. auction houses, so the low price should have been the first red flag...

 

[Airborn_69]

SS double claw snipers routinely sell for $30,000.00 at major U.S. auction houses, so the low price should have been the first red flag...

My sources say you’re on the ball on the matter. He also said what you described at $30k+ for the above and potential for way more.

 

[OR4NGE]

thanks for the analysis, was thinking of picking it up but I thought the price was a bit on the low side.

 

[IvoB]

one of the most interesting threads that I enjoyed reading - learned quite a bit on these firearms.

 

[Fuzzy Wool Hat]

one of the most interesting threads that I enjoyed reading - learned quite a bit on these firearms.

If you're interested in all the tiny details of K98 sniper rifles, I'd highly recommend picking up "The German Sniper 1914-1945" by Peter Senich. It goes into great detail on every variation with photos and markings

 

[student of history]

thanks for the analysis, was thinking of picking it up but I thought the price was a bit on the low side.

I’m happy to hear that the info was useful to you. The ad is still live in the EE, so I hope that any potential buyers find their way to this thread in advance of committing to anything.

 

[L42A1]

The one on the EE reminds me of the old "Mitchell's Mausers" ads I'd see in Guns and Ammo magazine back in the day.

 

[scott585]

a more general bit on collecting nazi stuff in particular:
the vast majority of all nazi stuff out there is probably fake. fake could mean real stuff that is buffed up to something it wasnt, fake could mean made on old or new machines by unscrupulous sellers, fake could mean items made immediatly after the war on the original equipment by the original operators who realized the various allied soldiers who were around wanted souveniers. in a country that just lost a war, this could be the one thing that gets food on the table.
understand what you want your collection to be, understand what to look for in those items, when in doubt assume its fake until proven otherwise.