kel tec sub 2000

Got a Glock model from Calgary Shooting Centre a few weeks ago.

First time out I got 25 rounds of 124 gn CP with 3.9gn Ac#2 through like a charm.

Next couple of times I was having some wicked ejection problems (FTE's) with my own loads (124 gn FMJ, 4.3 gn Accurate No2, 124 gn CP, 3.9gn Acc#2, 147 gn CP 3.9 gn W231). Roughly 100 rounds through so far.

Could have been me - I'm going to focus on technique next time I hit the range. As a blow back, if you limp wrist or relax after the trigger breaks, that can introduce a vertical force that causes friction as the bolt travels rearward, causing an FTE.

Likewise, as a new gun, it's entirely possible the buffer spring stored energy is too high so as to prevent the bolt to either have the maximum velocity or travel distance needed to eject cleanly. I know in the debate between keeping mags loaded, there's a religious fervour that doing so doesn't weaken the mag spring - but I don't think that's the case.

Following Hooke's law, the total potential energy of a spring under compression is E=(1/2)kx^2, where x is the displacement of the spring from its equilibrium position (the spring at rest, not compressed). Every spring that I've ever seen that's been under any compression over any prolonged period of time shortens (x is reduced) when it's brougth to equilibrium - thus the stored energy of the sprign is reduced.

Applied to the Sub 2000, the energy transferred from the bullet being fired has to overcome the stored energy of the spring - and if the potential energy of the spring is higher than the energy of the bullet being fired (Ek - 1/2mv^2), the bolt won't travel rearward far enough, fast enough, to eject the round cleanly.

Another possibility - especially since Ac#2 is a pretty slow burning powder, it's possible powder residue could have blown back into the buffer tube, and I've heard accounts of the lube Kel Tec uses when they ship out their guns turns quite gummy. Tonight I used a shotgun swab with Hoppes 9 (for a manly clean) to swab the buffer tube, then I put a very thin coat of CLP on the bolt.

There's a 4th possibility I'm concerned about. After my first range run, in a rush to do a quick field strip/clean, I fired off the action when the bolt was out. Afterwards I read in the manual that's a big no-no and needs a factory repair. Now, the hammer blocks the travel of the bolt when I reinsert it and I have to use a tool to push the hammer down so the bolt can fit. Maybe (hopefully not), the hammer is sliding along the bolt as it recoils, causing the bolt to drag, causing my FTE's. I sure hope not, and if so, I sure hope it's something I can fix.

Some research says some owners have FTEs until the gun's broken in, so I figure I'll give it a fwe hundred more rounds to see if I can solve the FTE problems.

My $0.02 any thoughts?
 
I've been loading for my SUB (glock version) and have found it likes heavier loads, although it has ran fine with every factory load I've run through it. Recoil spring definately is pretty stiff. Otherwise, I, and everyone else who has fired it quite likes it. Light, compact, 10 round centerfire, reloaded 9mm is cheap....... I think I'm going to be leaving it stock, as I think adding rails, lights, etc.... kind of defeats the purpose of the design.
 
So I contacted Kel Tec and got this response:

I know our Subs won’t work properly with any length mags over 15 rounds, because it won’t keep up with the blowback design. As for the other types you tried, I’m not familiar with them. Otherwise, the only thing I can think of they try would be replacing the extractor, which I’ll mail to you in the morning I can you decide to try that.

Otherwise, the only thing you can do would be to return the rifle to us for service. If so, Please return it to the physical address below with a letter stating your Name, Return Address, Phone Number, E-Mail Address, Model, Caliber, Serial Number, Brand and Type of Ammunitions used, any accessories that you’re sending along with it and difficulty experienced. We’ll need a copy of the purchase receipt to qualify for the warranty; otherwise there could be a charge for some parts and/or services as well as return shipping. No return authorization number is required. If you have a dealer return it for you, we’ll need their information for return. If you ship it yourself, you can use UPS or FedEx and say its “machine parts”. Do not ship it through the USPS mail though. Please also keep a record of your serial number for yourself, since that’s the easiest way for us to look it up. Please let us know if you have any further questions. Turnaround time is about 4-6 weeks. If you have an active law enforcement or military ID, please include a copy of that as well.

I also did some research on the KTOG forum and found this noteworthy response:
Since my FTE's were almost always last rounds, one member mentioned it was a GLock follower issue. The 10 round mag that came with the gun had an older style follower which actually was creating bolt drag, preventing eject. When I got a new 17 round Glock mag, which had the same follower as my 32 round factory mag, the issue went away. I also switched to 124 gr handloads, and really concentrated on proper shoulder weld. Scroll down and find my original post about FTE's, it will probably help you as it did me. Good luck.

This leads me to believe the Sub 2000 might have an irreconcilable problem of being prone to FTE with 10 round Glock mags (bummer for us in Canada).

I noticed I didn't have many FTE's when I first brought it out, but I suspect that may be due to my using KCI 17/10 and my 33 round factory glock mags.

I did a range test the other day, 100 rounds through. I loaded five, 10-round mags with 1 round only and had about a 90% FTE rate - some of them VERY nasty (including one where the shell casing actually cut deep into the feed ramp).

I loaded 5 separate gen3 and gen4 mags (each with the 2183-1 follower) with 1 round, and through 10 rounds with 2 different loads (147 gn CP with 3.9 Win 231, S&B small primer, and 124 gn FMJ with 4.3gn Ac#2, CCI small primer) - I had 9 FTE's. I also experienced the same problem with 124 gn CP with 3.9gn Ac#2).

With 90 more rounds through, I had 1 FTE when not firing the last round from the mag.

Next time out, I'll try using my KCI mags and 33 round factory Glock mags to see.

Doing some web research, indeed the magazine followers are different:

9mmmagazinefollowersb.jpg


The 10 rounders we use have the 2183-1 follower and it looks very obvious that the front of the mag comes up at an angle, while the 9mm1,3 and even the #2 and #1 mags are tapered downward or at least not straight the whole way across with the 2183-1 follower. This almost certainly would increase the probability that the last round to be snagged by the follower on it's way out, causing the FTE.
 
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Havent had any probs with my Glock sub. Keep it clean & hotter loads till they break in. I have over 800 rds thru mine now & she runs great. Sights suck though...
 
Havent had any probs with my Glock sub. Keep it clean & hotter loads till they break in. I have over 800 rds thru mine now & she runs great. Sights suck though...

I think your onto soemthing.

I tried out a friend's reloads - pretty close to the never exceed in Lee's reloading guide for bullseye with 124gn using bullseye - 40 rounds, not one stoppage using 10 round mags :(

Tommorow I'll try it out with BDX reloads, 4.3gn Ac#2 (exceeding the never exceed) 124 gn CP, and 4.0 gn Ac#2 with 124 gn CP.

I'm pretty confused right now.
 
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