Kimber vs. Norinco

pontcanna

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http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/ceb/2006/07/24/sports/rama.a.pair.of.fighting.forty.fives.html

Monday, July 24, 2006
Rama: A pair of fighting forty-fives

By Karlon N. Rama
Stagefive

Mention the word forty-five into a room full of men and they'll think nineteen-eleven, cocked and locked.

A lot won't be using those exact terminologies, of course, but it's all the same - it's the gun Fernando Poe Jr. used to blast all the bad guys away in his movies when the use of his collapsible magical sword wasn't in the script.

Cinema chiseled what psychologists would call the schema – forty-five equals nineteen-elevens – in our heads.

Philippine history would have made the association more sophisticated –John Moses Browning made the design for the American Army whose presence in Mindanao during the American period was met with bloodshed – but history is boring to many while movies are entertaining to most.

The nineteen-eleven design is 95 years old (it was adopted into American Army service in March 29, 1911) but it is still the world's most popular pistol.

In its original chambering of .45 cal. ACP, it remains in heavy use among law enforcement agencies and special military units and remains sought after in the civilian home and personal defense markets.

It is manufactured in more countries, the Philippines among them, than any other pistol design and in the downloaded chambering of 9x23mm and .40 cal. ACP, is also a favorite in competitive shooting circles.

The specimen:

I encountered two such forty-fives recently.

The first was a Kimber Custom TLE/RL recently acquired by businessman Jojo Roble of the Cebu-based Roble Shipping. The TLE stands for Tactical Law Enforcement, it having been originally designed for law enforcement use. The RL, meanwhile, denotes a special feature - a Picatinny rail machined unto the frame.

The gun is commercially available. Twin Pines Inc., located along Ramos St., offers an upgraded version called the Warrior. This version features low-profile "night-sights" made by an Israeli company called Meprolight.

Night-sights are your ordinary post and notch sighting system with holes milled in them. Small cylinders filled with a radioactive substance called tritium have been inserted into the holes that now appear as dots in the sights - two on the rear and one on the front. The dots glow in the dark.

The Custom TLE/RL features a five-inch match-grade barrel with 16 left hand twist, a steel slide and frame built to tolerances Kimber is known for, plus low-profile sights. The gun boasts of a good mate black finish, weighs 5.52 ounces empty and comes with black synthetic grips and an aluminum match-grade trigger.

The second is a 1911A1 that Atty. Neil Nuñez of Cebu City bought from Royal Interarms, located along Ramos St., also recently.

It was a basic model – your ordinary World War II blued nineteen-eleven clone. Neil made a few aesthetic and shooter-assisting modifications though. The frame was given a chrome job by gunsmith Mario Abangan who also installed night-sights, a Wilson one-piece guide rod, a high-rise beavertail, ambidextrous safety, a lightened trigger, a lightened hammer, a magazine well, Pachmayer rubber grips and a flat mainspring housing.

The verdict:

Range tested a few days ago, both firearms made 1.5 to 1.7-inch groups within 20 yards using 230-grain lead bullets hand loaded by Kamagong Gun Club's Roberto "Obet" Perero.

The Kimber had the edge in nighttime defensive use though since it allowed the quick and secure installation of accessories like mounted flashlights with its Picatinny rail feature.

But the Norinco wasn't far behind. Its tritium night-sight also made accurate shooting possible under ambient lighting.

All told, there were only two major differences in the two specimens: brand and price. The Norinco, even with the modifications, doesn't cost half what one would pay for a Kimber.

The Kimber, undoubtedly, is the Mercedes Benz of the defensive firearm industry. Its nineteen-elevens are recognized as among the finest ever produced both in terms of utility and aesthetics.

The Kimber Custom, for example, is the official sidearm of the Los Angeles Police Department Swat Team. And in the prevailing colonial concept of what is good for Johnny must also be good for Juan, the Philippine government bought a handful of Kimbers and assigned them to the directors of the National Bureau of Investigation.

Norinco's nineteen-elevens, on the other hand, are on the bottom rung on the prestige ladder. Built - the more accurate term is mass produced - in China, they lack the sleek lines, the satin-smooth finish and the pleasing curves of the more high-end brands.

But cut from virgin steel, the material from which Norinco guns are machined from are among the hardest in the world.

And, with a little work and lots of love, they can match any gun in a pair of fighting forty-fives. (knrama@gmail.com)
 
some folks will likely be very disturbed after reading this article. but really, the chinese have nuclear weapons too. they probably aren't as shiny as usa's, but they will still do the job......
 
OH man....I like side-by-side comparisons as much as the next guy, but talk about stirring the pot! The "Kimber Bullies" are going to descend upon this thread like a pack of velociraptors in three...two...one...
 
I'm not sure where buddy got the work done, but all that stuff he did to his Nork would cost a pretty penny up here.....put you well over a grand with the cost of the gun.....which is about what the Kimbers start at.
I guess it all depends on whether you want a $1000 Nork or a $1000 Kimber.......:)
 
Hitzy said:
I'm not sure where buddy got the work done, but all that stuff he did to his Nork would cost a pretty penny up here.....put you well over a grand with the cost of the gun.....which is about what the Kimbers start at.
I guess it all depends on whether you want a $1000 Nork or a $1000 Kimber.......:)

The work was done in the Philippines, the labour would have been negligible but of high quality. This post was written by someone from Cebu. Cebu is a freaky place as far as firearms are concerned. To get around the Filipino firearms laws they have tons of backstreet shops cranking out home made revolvers for about $15 a pop. You don't associate the Philippines with guns but they went ape in '99 when the IPSC world shoot was held there.

This post raised a wry grin on my face as I know the Twin Pines Gun-store very well as it is a usual haunt when we stop over in Manila on the way to our house in Northern Luzon.

If you want to get an idea what is widely available there then check out the ARMSCOR website. I have yet to get my hands on one of their tanfoglio clones but I am hearing good things about them. Have a look at the M30BG, this is our home defense gun for there.
 
You know... when I was buying my Kimber, the thought of purchasing a Norinco and spending $600 in upgrades on it never even entered my head.

It never will, either. It's not even because I think Kimber makes a superior pistol, it's just because I was in the market for a good strong quality gun with a brand name to back it up. A gun I'd be proud to keep for the rest of my life.
 
BMW vs a turbocharged Honda with a body kit (maybe "Honda" is a bit generous).

Two completely different guns but I have owned and still own custom guns that make the fancy factory guns appear overpriced. In the end though, sometimes it is nice to just buy a nice gun and leave it alone and know it will work.
 
And the "brand" snobs lumber forth like...lumbering zombies. Dudes, my FN highpower built back around 68/69 gets better groups then my buddies S/W 9mm match grade. Plus, my BHP will eat any ammo I throw at it, while his will only "tolerate" new unfired loaded brass or factory unfired ammo, it will literally jam when loading any reloaded ammo.

Its like all the guys I know with Harley always whining about going into the shop for parts, waiting for parts etc. My 84 Honda Shadow is going strong even with all the years of minimal maintenance I threw at it. Similar styling but much different price tag.

Say what you want about norc "quality", but trigger work/replacement isnt going to equal the cost of a kimber, at least by my math.

And comparing a premium car to a civic is slightly off IMO, try comparing a turbo porche to an STI or an R32 skyline at their Canadian prices.
 
pontcanna said:
The nineteen-eleven design is 95 years old (it was adopted into American Army service in March 29, 1911) but it is still the world's most popular pistol.

My reading suggests that the 1911 went through US Army trials in 1903, but that John Moses Browning had actually completed his design for an automatic pistol some time before 1898. That would make the 1911 "design" more like 108 years old! :p
 
I will need to try both for at least 3 years before i can comment, please send both pistols to the address below....
 
Nope..would take the Norc...

If however I wanted a nice carry piece (not that I can mind you) I might take Les Baer or Kimber strictly for aesthetics...put it in a nice custom Galco Alligator holster to... :)
 
Billy The Kid said:
:rolleyes: Someone needs a lesson in reloading then..............:rolleyes:


Not this guy, he's very well versed in reloading. His springfield is a nat'l match version. Apparently the tolerances on these are so tight that the few hundreths of an inch increase in diameter is all it takes to jam prior to chambering. IMO this renders this nat'l match gun a casual range gun only, would not trust it in competition or for real world situations.:eek:
 
LeftFootOfDoom said:
Not this guy, he's very well versed in reloading. His springfield is a nat'l match version. Apparently the tolerances on these are so tight that the few hundreths of an inch increase in diameter is all it takes to jam prior to chambering. IMO this renders this nat'l match gun a casual range gun only, would not trust it in competition or for real world situations.:eek:

He's either feeding you a line - or has the ####tiest dies on the planet.
 
It becomes a question of what you paid for a weapon and what money you have to put into it to bring it up to your standards. I paid $500 (US) for this Kimber, it was used but only by me when I did T&E for the original owner. Other than the grips, I have not put a cent into it.

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I paid $350 for my #2 Norinco and I had a match barrel bushing done, Novak sights, beavertail grip safety, trigger group, reblue done. I probably have $800 (US) total in it.
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Both of these handguns function equally well but in this case the Kimber was was the better buy.

Regards,

Richard:D
 
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