Knock out punch?

PaulT

PaulT

Regular
Rating - 100%
45   0   0
Location
Gatineau-Ottawa
HI all,

Well, I try to find a formula to calculate the "Knock out punch" of a 45-70 VS ex: a 30-06 or 7MMRM. There is a debate on another forum that many state that 45-70 is not as strong as many would imagine :eek: and I would like to compare the real difference.

How could I determine the "punch" of specific caliber? If I look only at the ballistics, the velocity and energy does not say enough.

How to calculate the difference in "knock out punch" of a 45cal bullet that have ex: 1000lbs of energy at 100yds compared to a 30cal bullet that have the same 1000lbs at 100yds. I know that 1000lbs is 1000lbs but there must be a formula to calculate the difference in between the 2. The 45cal bullet must have more "punch" then the 30cal bullet even if they have the same energy when hitting the target ... no ?

Thanks
 
The good thing about Taylor knockout value is it does not take into account bullet expansion, which is impossible to predetermine anyways. Here are some Taylor Values courtesy "Supreme Handloads"(45/70) with permission of Author:
Marlin 45/70 465gr. Chambers TKO 58
375 H&H 300gr jack. TKO 41
416 Rem 400gr jack. TKO 57
45/70 Ruger 500gr. jack(Long thr.) TKO 66
458 Win 500gr. jack TKO 72
300 Win. 180gr. jack TKO 31
 
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by knock out punch? Killing power? Energy Transfer?

These might help...

July/August 2005 issue of Rifle Shooter magazine to John Wooter's "lethality-factor index formula" - I don't have a copy personally...

and

The Rifle Cartridge Killing Power Formula
by Chuck Hawks

http://www.chuckhawks.com
-Guns and shooting online

**I didn't post Chuck Hawks formula because he apparantly has a super disliking to people doing so on web pages...not something I agree with, but I figure we oughta respect his written property. **
 
The TKO value, like all the various formulae like it, are biased to give results that the author wants and expects.

Does the .458 bullet kill better because it's wider (Caliber)? Maybe...
Does the .308 bullet kill better because it's longer than it is wide (SD)? Maybe...
Is the .458 bullet's 1,000 lbs of impact energy more 'deadly' because the bullet is more massive (permanent wound channel)? Maybe...
Is the .308 bullet's 1,000 lbs of impact energy more 'deadly' because the bullet is moving faster (temporary wound channel)? Maybe...

There is no scientific, objective way to determine 'killing power'. Any formula that promises to deliver this number to you is lying, or coloring the truth, or both.

Truth is, nobody really knows.
 
I'm agreeing with Bishopus...waaaay too many variables to take into account. Even simple expansion rates of specific bullets in individual animal consistencies would invalidate any real formula.

I still recommend reading this article...nods in the right direction.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power.htm

He has charts and his actual formula in the members-section...but this public article covers things pretty well...
 
Although I have to agree with most of what the Chuck Hawks says in that article... I still don't think he has had an original thought on anything... he just plagiarizes others works as usual.
 
Calum,
Bullet placement is a whole different discusion. Pails of ink have been spilt, and entire forests have been cut down to argue whether a lung shot is better than a heart shot, shoulder shots versus CNS hits and so on.That's fun too!

PaulT,
Bullets have about the same "Knock-down power" as a snowball. Here is a collection of head-ache inducing info. Loosely translated it comes out as:
Big bullets make bigger holes than small bullets.
Fast bullets make bigger holes than slow bullets.
Given same caliber and construction, heavy bullets will make deeper holes.
Given strong enough construction, fast bullets will make deeper holes than slow bullets. Dogleg
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/myths.html
 
Methinks dead is dead and there aint no thing as deader:dancingbanana:
Now if yur talkn' blowed up well then there is blowed up and then there is blowed up real good.
 
Power

They usually refer to the power as foot pounds of energy. There is a simple formula to calculate the foot pounds of energy of any rifle bullet.
It is velocity squared divided by 450240 times the weight of the bullet.
Thus, a 30-06, 180 grain bullet at 2700, figures out to just over 2900 foot pounds of energy.
Strangly, a heavy loaded 45-70 with a 405 grain bullet at 1800, comes out about exactly the same! Of course, these are muzzle velocity figures, but it can be worked out for any range, if the velocity figures down range are known.
As to which bullet will knock em down, kill them quicker, or what ever, the argument can go on forever.
 
Timo said:
Methinks dead is dead and there aint no thing as deader:dancingbanana:
Now if yur talkn' blowed up well then there is blowed up and then there is blowed up real good.
Click to expand...
Them's technical terms I uses all da Time!:D

My favorite is from a ballistican friend of mine who will remain nameless as he is well known.
It went somethin like this.....
"Let's review these hundred or so kills, now.
All shots from 25 to 300 and better, all except one took only one shot, from five different calibers of rifles
Antlers on the ground, hooves in the air. What's yer problem, son?"
That about says it all!:dancingbanana:
Cat
 
I can't believe this hasn't been posted yet - but give this a read and you'll have a much clearer picture of the issues around figuring out how 'lethal' a gun is. It discusses the pro's and cons' of most of the 'formulas' out there.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

The fact is, there's no such thing as a 'formula' that can do it all. There's just way too many variables. But they can be useful as a comparison to give you an idea how one would perform over another.

One last note - in a general sense there are two ways that bullets do damage passing thru an animal. Some cartridges are designed do damage by creating a shock wave that creates a wound channel much larger than the diameter of the bullet. This requires enough energy to 'push' the tissue out of the way. Those bullets need 'kinetic energy' - which is the ability to do 'work'. Other cartridges are designed to throw a large heavy bullet thru the animal and leave a nice big fat hole all by themselves. THat requires 'momentum' - the ability of the bullet to keep going despite resistance.

All hunting rounds do a little of both obviously, but there is a difference in rounds designed to do one or the other primarily.

When comparing the 30-06 and the 45-70, remember that the first is a 'shockwave' kind of cartridge with most modern loads, and the 45 is more of a "blow a big, fat, honkin' hole in 'em and air 'em out" kind of cartridge. You can't compare their kinetic energy OR their momentum (different calculations entirely) apples to apples.
 
BTW - this stuff is fun to talk about, but at the end of the day if you blow a hole in the major organs of an animal, it's going to die. And pretty quick. So keep it in perspective - there aren't many animals out there in north america you can shoot with a 30-06 OR a 45-70 and not have fall over dead in short order :D
 
Calculate for recoil ... with all guns being the SAME weight.

1 of Mr. Newton's Laws would suggest that the one with the highest
recoil (given identical weight) should have the greatest "knockdown"
power (at both ends !!! ) :D
 
1 of Mr. Newton's Laws would suggest that the one with the highest
recoil (given identical weight) should have the greatest "knockdown"
power (at both ends !!! )
Click to expand...

Well that'd be true if energy alone killed animals - but as was mentioned there's a heck of a lot more to it than that. Consider two identical loads for the 30-06 .. same powders, same weight in bullet, same gun. But one has FMJ bullets and the other has a proper expanding bonded core hunting bullet. Both produce exactly the same energy... which will tend to give you a faster cleaner kill? So you can see, there's more to it that Mr. Newton's ideas encompas :D
 
No arguement: proper bullet construction & placement have always
been recognized as critical factors.

Break a leg with a 470 Nitro Express or a 44-40 -
it's still "no liver & onions for you" ... and shame on anyone
who would even contemplate hunting big game with FMJ's.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom