KRIEG NICHT GUT! Aber?
- Thread starter K98ACTION
- Start date
MauserMike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
Lieber K98,
Das ist eine sehr schöne Waffensammlung. Viel Spaß mit dem Sieg!
Das ist eine sehr schöne Waffensammlung. Viel Spaß mit dem Sieg!
1) The first atom bomb was not operational until July 1945. That's 3 months after Germany's surrender. A lot could have happened in Europe in 3 months had the Soviets turned on the allies.
2) The wehrmacht was a paper army after May 2nd, 1945. Totally disjointed. OKW had lost communication with all troops of consequence, ammo was virtually GONE. It's estimated by Antony Beevor that less 3 king tigers and 5 Tigers were still operational, and none of them had any fuel. These were attached to Scharnhorst and Nordland and were tied up in the defence of Berlin. All were knoocked out by the 6th. Busse's 9th army had been reduced to 25,000 fighting men and Weidling's forces on the Elbe had to blow up their guns and abandon all remaining equipment to escape the Elbe salient into American hands on the 4th of May. Virtually no soldiers were in a condition to continue the fight.
In short: Germany's contribution in such a scenario would have been negligible. The allied supply lines ran back to Antwerp and all supplies had to comre from England and the US via a very long boat ride. T34's were being produced at a rate of over 100 tanks per day and the soviet forces had over 4 million men in the field in occupied European territory.
I submit that an allied victory against the Soviets in May through July of 1945 is far from a certainty.
2) The wehrmacht was a paper army after May 2nd, 1945. Totally disjointed. OKW had lost communication with all troops of consequence, ammo was virtually GONE. It's estimated by Antony Beevor that less 3 king tigers and 5 Tigers were still operational, and none of them had any fuel. These were attached to Scharnhorst and Nordland and were tied up in the defence of Berlin. All were knoocked out by the 6th. Busse's 9th army had been reduced to 25,000 fighting men and Weidling's forces on the Elbe had to blow up their guns and abandon all remaining equipment to escape the Elbe salient into American hands on the 4th of May. Virtually no soldiers were in a condition to continue the fight.
In short: Germany's contribution in such a scenario would have been negligible. The allied supply lines ran back to Antwerp and all supplies had to comre from England and the US via a very long boat ride. T34's were being produced at a rate of over 100 tanks per day and the soviet forces had over 4 million men in the field in occupied European territory.
I submit that an allied victory against the Soviets in May through July of 1945 is far from a certainty.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
I would make a slight correction to "fighting for the homeland." They were fighting to take over other people's homelands. I believe it was called "Lebensraum"
And please don't get the idea that only the SS were the bad guys. Whenever they were a bit shorthanded in carrying out their "cleansing", they had no problem getting the regular army to help out.
And please don't get the idea that only the SS were the bad guys. Whenever they were a bit shorthanded in carrying out their "cleansing", they had no problem getting the regular army to help out.
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IS it a problem about who win the war:the country who loose the war is demonized and the victorius country became the country of the angels almoust all books about ww2 is from the winner point of wiew
keep on working milions on wellfare depend on you
I think it would be difficult not to see the Holocaust and the Nazi theory of UnterMenschen towards the Slavic race as anything nobler than complete Genocidal eugenicism and immorality.
Did some individuals on all sides have serious flaws? Yes. Did anyone have flaws thet measured up to all those of the collective Third Reich? You MIGHT be able to make an argument for Stalin, but certainly not Churchill, Eisenhower or even Hirohito!
Did some individuals on all sides have serious flaws? Yes. Did anyone have flaws thet measured up to all those of the collective Third Reich? You MIGHT be able to make an argument for Stalin, but certainly not Churchill, Eisenhower or even Hirohito!
You might want to start thinking about how our own country was built. Didn't the English and the French have a bit of a Holocaust with the Natives, you know deseased blankets and all. Seems pretty muchlike the same thing. I don't have much against very many other countries as I'm not a hypocrit.
Not directed at you personally Claven2, but this is the main arguement of the Victors.
Hi Corneluc.. Listen don't even worry about that last comment by Sulkey there are just as many people on this forum who are NOT brainwashed by the inaccuracy of the Victors version of WWII History. It is clear that Mr. Sulkey does not study both sides of the facts. He obvisouly does not even have a clue what I was referring to when I made mention of Ethnic Germans fighting for their homeland near the end of the war and not for Hitlers ideals. The red carpet was coming and for a Saxon from Romania that meant the end of his homeland and way of life under communist rule. Anyway the brainwashed people on this forum will just drive you nutz if you let them..
So are you from Transilvania?
Also C'mon people the Soviets would never have gained the momentum they achieved at the end of the war had the little retard (Hitler) not interfered with the German War planning, because Russia would have been defeated in the first year of Op Barbarossa and the British would have been defeated at Dunkirk. It goes on and on. Hitler screwed it up not that I believe in his ideal or anything like that. But if we are going to sit here and discuss the superior military war machine. The German soldier to a man was at the top. Not that the GERMANS are superior humans (LIKE I KNOW SOMEONE IS GOING TO THINK THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING...) But rather, because the Germans were preparing for war all through the thirties while the west was asleep at the wheel. and maybe alittle yes inthat they sure were good in science and engineering development. The wonder weapon was German not American. Americans just happend to get it from the germans. But if you think for one miniute.
Like Claven says,, it was three months after the Germans lost the war that the US had the bomb. Well I say that if Hitler did not mess up so many operational plans during the war, those three months could have easily been returned to a still waring Germany and likely several more months before they got to be in the actual position they found them selves in by April 45.
Anyway, read, learn, ask questions, but please don't just say stuff on here due to your brainwashing. Atrosities were committed by all players in WWII. But all players also showed compassion and honor where possible during terrible times.
They lost yes. But their Officer corp, tactics, training, weapons and engineering was more advanced at the out break of WWII than any country in the world at the time.
The west was caught with their pants down and it is a common belief that the Germany would have easily won the war had it not been for Hitler's insistent meddling with military operations.
This stuff is all out there for anyone of you to read and research. You just have to get over the brainwashing and learn.
I AM NOT supporting Nazism or what they did. But simply I am saying that the German Armed Forces of WWII if left alone to fight the war the way they wanted to, well you know the rest of the story.
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I think you may be confusing British/Canadians with our American colonial friends. Natives in Canada were comparatively well treated.
And as for victor/vanquished, my Acadian ancestors WERE the victims of a British Genocide (the expulsion). I still think England had the moral high ground in WW2 despite the bad blood
A little off topic but here goes...
Heres a couple of pics for ya K98. A little bit of history. These are pictures taken from captured germans in WWII. The troops in white are on the Russian front. The others I don't know where they were taken.
http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t269/Rick65Cat/Gun Stuff/?action=view¤t=DSC03179_edited.jpg
http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t269/Rick65Cat/Gun Stuff/?action=view¤t=DSC03175_edited.jpg
Somehow my dad managed to get these when he was in Europe in "The Big One" I inherited this photo album with a lot of his "ocupation pictures" when the estate was settled.
The only way I could do this was to take pictures of the pictures. (not very compewter smart eh?)
Heres a couple of pics for ya K98. A little bit of history. These are pictures taken from captured germans in WWII. The troops in white are on the Russian front. The others I don't know where they were taken.
http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t269/Rick65Cat/Gun Stuff/?action=view¤t=DSC03179_edited.jpg
http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t269/Rick65Cat/Gun Stuff/?action=view¤t=DSC03175_edited.jpg
Somehow my dad managed to get these when he was in Europe in "The Big One" I inherited this photo album with a lot of his "ocupation pictures" when the estate was settled.
The only way I could do this was to take pictures of the pictures. (not very compewter smart eh?)
Very interesting pictures.
Note of the soldiers in the white camo picture seems to be holding a mosin. Also interesting to see marder tanks in use. Very interesting. Also, any picture with a mg34 in it, is a good one
To add to the discussion brewing above.
According to Anthony Beevor, I belive his name is, in his book Stalingrad. Which is a great read btw, he outlines that based on his research, the myth that only the Waffen-ss carried out clean-up duties, is not true. He states that Wehrmacht units often volenteered or were ordered to round up people of various backgrounds. Even Paulus, general of the 6th was aware of this, and passed on such orders.
This can be proven by looking at the old papertrails and order lists from back then. If i have the spare tiem and energy, ill pull out the book and quote directly.
It is a good thing Nazi Germany, Facisist Italy and Imperial Japan lost. Or else we would have maditory firearm registration, police harrassment, murder by tasers, phone taps, senior citizen firearm collection confiscation by provincial weapons enforcement thugs, people with stealing badges, etc. etc. etc.
Beleive me it is true. I have seen far too many firearms owners horribly mistreated by Canada's dreaded SS (Special Squads.)
Beleive me it is true. I have seen far too many firearms owners horribly mistreated by Canada's dreaded SS (Special Squads.)
Some glorify the ####
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1YniTJuW50&feature=related
some reflect on what happened and try to learn for the future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxPwz_emDmM
The pictures were taken during 'The Wehrmacht' exhibition in Australia and Germany which was very controversial.
Everybody can chose his favorite side. Please apologize my ignorance as a German who grew up after the war and had to digest the terrible consequences of WWII. I like to handle firearms but as soon as I pick up a K98 or P38 (Kopfschuss Pistole) a unpleasant feeling crawls over my neck. Enjoy your collection, but tell people the whole story. The same counts for other nations who committed war crimes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1YniTJuW50&feature=related
some reflect on what happened and try to learn for the future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxPwz_emDmM
The pictures were taken during 'The Wehrmacht' exhibition in Australia and Germany which was very controversial.
Everybody can chose his favorite side. Please apologize my ignorance as a German who grew up after the war and had to digest the terrible consequences of WWII. I like to handle firearms but as soon as I pick up a K98 or P38 (Kopfschuss Pistole) a unpleasant feeling crawls over my neck. Enjoy your collection, but tell people the whole story. The same counts for other nations who committed war crimes.
MauserMike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
The West German Federal Police and the Army didn't seem to have an image problem with the P38. The Walther P1 (postwar P38) was standard issue, up to what, 1995?
This is ridiculous. Collecting the relics of vanquished opponents is as old as conflict itself. Roman Legionaires covted sinew-reinforced bowes taken from fallen huns and damascus steel blades from Gaul.
That westerners are fascinated with the weapons of the Third Reich is to be expected and certainly not looked down upon. To the voctors go the spoils.
PS: Before we go pointing the "war crimes finger", some interesting factoids are in order. I'm not passing judgement, but before we get all "holier than thou", let's be honest with ourselves.
1) Long before we knew about concentration camps in Germany, we had concentration camps in Canada during WW2 filled with Asians and ethnic Germans. Lots of them died too.
2) The Luftwaffe bombed civilian targets in England as early as 1940. By 1941 were were fire-bombing German cities. Do as we say and not as we do?
3) The 2nd SS killed a bunch of QOR lads in Normandy, execution style. The CEF wasn't exactly squeaky clean either though. We shot our share of SS waving white flags too.
4) We were allied with the Soviet Union who invaded Poland and shot plenty of Polish innocents who refused to support Communism in 1939. The Stalin government also purged hundreds of thousands of its own innocent people and is responsible for millions more deaths in post-war Ukraine by a policy of purposeful starvation to punish the region for surrendering to Germany in 1941. During the fall of Berlin, it is estimated over 70% of the female population was brutally raped by Soviet soldiers. The west knew all this AS IT WAS HAPPENING. We didn't even formally requrest the Soviets to stop, let alone denounce the behaviour.
5) The USA dropped the Hiroshima bomb on Aug. 6, 1945. The Nagasaki bomb was dropped on Aug. 9, 1945. Over 220,000 people died instantly - neither target had any real military significance. History has shown that Tokyo's first knowledge of what had really caused the disaster in Hiroshima came from the White House public announcement in Washington, D.C., sixteen hours after the nuclear attack on Hiroshima. The Japanese were already planning to surrender unconditionally before the Nagasaki attack killed it's 80,000 civilian victims.
I could go on...
War is brutal. The Nazi regime was evil, but to paint all things German as evil and all things Allied as noble is overly simplistic.
1) Long before we knew about concentration camps in Germany, we had concentration camps in Canada during WW2 filled with Asians and ethnic Germans. Lots of them died too.
2) The Luftwaffe bombed civilian targets in England as early as 1940. By 1941 were were fire-bombing German cities. Do as we say and not as we do?
3) The 2nd SS killed a bunch of QOR lads in Normandy, execution style. The CEF wasn't exactly squeaky clean either though. We shot our share of SS waving white flags too.
4) We were allied with the Soviet Union who invaded Poland and shot plenty of Polish innocents who refused to support Communism in 1939. The Stalin government also purged hundreds of thousands of its own innocent people and is responsible for millions more deaths in post-war Ukraine by a policy of purposeful starvation to punish the region for surrendering to Germany in 1941. During the fall of Berlin, it is estimated over 70% of the female population was brutally raped by Soviet soldiers. The west knew all this AS IT WAS HAPPENING. We didn't even formally requrest the Soviets to stop, let alone denounce the behaviour.
5) The USA dropped the Hiroshima bomb on Aug. 6, 1945. The Nagasaki bomb was dropped on Aug. 9, 1945. Over 220,000 people died instantly - neither target had any real military significance. History has shown that Tokyo's first knowledge of what had really caused the disaster in Hiroshima came from the White House public announcement in Washington, D.C., sixteen hours after the nuclear attack on Hiroshima. The Japanese were already planning to surrender unconditionally before the Nagasaki attack killed it's 80,000 civilian victims.
I could go on...
War is brutal. The Nazi regime was evil, but to paint all things German as evil and all things Allied as noble is overly simplistic.
THANK YOU CLAVEN. POINT ACCEPTED AND FULLY AGREED TO. Gentleman back to your Milsurps and all things Militaria..
Why Mainly German Militaria for me, I just seem to like leather, and metric more than canvas and imperial.. But I'm getting a WWII Canadian set up on the go, so stay posted for those pics.
LATER
