Krinker Plinker -- *NEW* Model

[Questar]

If the 8" kit has the stock welded open and flash hider welded, it is non-restricted, right? Can you supply the kit with both items already welded? Same price?

Do you have large 10-22 mags for sale?

Do you have and sell the Krinkov flash hider separately?

We don't weld the kits... that would be up to you.

Both 25 and 50 round magazines are coming... probably not until early April. No pricing at this time.

We don't have any "spare" Krinkov flash hiders but will be ordering some in future.

 

[Rebel Rouser]

The kits are legal because they are classified as a Commercial Customization. That's not exactly the same as "build/try-to-register a <26" yourself.

Here's the written statement from CFC. This was based on the original 16" kit, which was under 660mm when the stock was folded. The Re-Designed Canadian Version meets the 660mm requirement (as long as the "pin" is insert into the suppressor when assembly is completed). The 8" kits would require re-registration unless you modify the kit (by welding the folding stock open):

Mark

As promised, here is a formal reply to your question below.

I have reviewed the after market accessory kit known as the "Krinker Plinker" by C&S Metal Werke at http://www.krinkerplinker.com.
As you are well aware, the Ruger 10/22 is an entity unto itself, and there are a great number of after market kits available to transform its appearance to that which will resemble any number of other type firearms. The essence of these conversions however, it that they are cosmetic in nature, and do not change the classification of the firearm in question. Most often, as is the case with the Krinker Plinker, the Ruger receiver markings are still visable, and while at first glance it may appear as something else, a short visual inspection will identify it as a Ruger 10/22 carbine. Trusting that no alterations have been made that change the operation of the firearm- say from semi-auto matic to full automatic, or that change the cartridge type from rim-fire to center-fire, it is safe to recognize these kts as "dress-up" cosmetic changes only.

In the case of the Krinker Plinker above, where a barrel change and a stock change is involved, you are correct in questioning the Criminal Code application. Because Ruger 10/22 barrels are commercially available in a number of lengths, (commercially available is the operative word here) it is recognized by the Canada Firearms Center that these are readily being installed and provided that the overall length does not drop below 660 mm, no change in classification because of a barrel change is required. As is the case with an after-market folding stock and the original barrel; provided the overall lenth does not fall below 660, there is no issue with the Criminal Code and the addition of a folding stock.

In reviewing this application and by following your measurements, it is understood that with the installation of this kit, your overall length will fall below the 660 minimum limit if folded, therefore a firearms classification change from non-restricted to restricted would then be in order. The ramifications of this are severe to the owner, as his licence requirements would change, and the firearm would be subject to increased restrictions for storage, handling, and use. The welding of the stock in a permanently open position would negate this class change, again I must re-iterate the "permanent" importance of the alteration.

You are also correct in your understanding of the Criminal Code and the alteration. Alteration is non-commercial cutting/sawing of a firearm to create a shortened version of the original firearm without replacing parts. This action is typically in contravention of the Criminal Code, particularily when a change in firearms class is incurred. Generally the alteration of a firearm, in this sense, is regarded as illegal.

I trust this answers your questions with regard to the legality of the Krinker Plinker. Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Regards,

George

Firearms Analyst/ Technical Advisor
Technical Advisory Group
CFC-CAFC ​

I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade square, but what the CFC is telling you is only half true. You can reduce the overall lenght as long as it does not go lower than 660mm/26" overall when able to fire. But in the same section of the Criminal Code is states that barrel length cannot be shorter than 457mm/18" or it is demeed a "prohibited firearm". If the rifle came from factory and it is shorter than 457mm/18" than that is ok.

Here is the loop hole. If it came from the factory as a no-barrel reciever, any length of barrel can be added and it will stay non-restricted if it is not full automatic or semi-automatic and centre-fire.

 

[Questar]

I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade square, but what the CFC is telling you is only half true. You can reduce the overall lenght as long as it does not go lower than 660mm/26" overall when able to fire. But in the same section of the Criminal Code is states that barrel length cannot be shorter than 457mm/18" or it is demeed a "prohibited firearm". If the rifle came from factory and it is shorter than 457mm/18" than that is ok.

Here is the loop hole. If it came from the factory as a no-barrel reciever, any length of barrel can be added and it will stay non-restricted if it is not full automatic or semi-automatic and centre-fire.

Not to be argumentative... but that is your "interpretation" of the code. According to their written statements, it is not how CFC interprets it.

If we used your definition, then anyone who's ever bought a 20" AR-15 and then bought a 16" upper to go with it has created a prohibited firearm. That is simply not the case. CFC has stated in no uncertain terms that the key is the word "altered" and how it is defined. Cutting, sawing or altering your 18" inch barrel to something shorting than 16" creates a prohibited firearm according to the criminal code... but changing the barrel to a commercially available "less than 18 inch" barrel is not considered to be a contravention of the criminal code.

That is what they have put in writing. Do you have some specific case law that shows this not to be correct?

 

[Rebel Rouser]

Don't get me wrong I want one of these as bad as the next guy. But I want to be 100% sure on the legalities of it. I want to make sure the "i" are dot and the "t" cross, you have to cover your own a$$. I talk to Dave Tomlinson from the NFA for pretty close to a hour on this. We looked at what it said in the Firearms Act and his interpretation is you are making a prohibited weapon. He said that even though the CFC supplied it in writing doesn't mean anything because it is not law. If you got charged you could probably use the letter in your defence. He said the only way to get a clear definition is that someone gets charged with possession of a prohibited weapon. Then spends $100,000 in legal fees and gets a ruling by the Supreme Court of Canada.

 

[CanFire]

Then spends $100,000 in legal fees and gets a ruling by the Supreme Court of Canada.

Yep, that would be pretty definitive. I'm willing to take a 99.9999% chance that everything will work out though so I'll be enjoying my Krinker kit by this weekend.

 

[Canuck223]

Where the law is vague, a written opinion from the experts at the agency in charge of administering the act carrys weight. Rebel is correct that this does not preclude a reversal later, however it pretty much guarentees that it won't turn into a criminal matter.

If I was building one, I would be tempted to get the 8 inch model, and have it re-registered as a restricted. In that way, you have both the written opinion and their act of re-registering the gun to support your legal status.

 

[Rebel Rouser]

If I was Questar I would get a letter from the RCMP Firearm Forensic Lab just to make sure. Remember the Walther G22? CFC said you could have them too. Then the RCMP said that they were prohibited. CFC then sent letters to everyone to hand them in for destruction.

 

[Questar]

If I was Questar I would get a letter from the RCMP Firearm Forensic Lab just to make sure. Remember the Walther G22? CFC said you could have them too. Then the RCMP said that they were prohibited. CFC then sent letters to everyone to hand them in for destruction.

It wouldn't matter... per your own earlier comments... the only sure way to know it's "legal" according to you is to get charged and then fight it all the way to the Supreme Court. The RCMP don't make the law any more than the CFC does... and they don't have final say in it's interpretation. Politicians make the laws and the the courts get to decide how to interpret them.

A letter from the RCMP would have no more validity than a letter from CFC... as you say, if a police officer decides to lay the charge, regardless of the letter, you could be the "test case".

Having said that... it would be very difficult for a crown attorney to pursue a charge against you when you are in possession of a letter from CFC stating you followed their procedures and recommendations. It would be unlikely to ever get to a court let alone the Supreme Court.

If you're really that worried about this then I'd be happy to sell you a complete Ruger 10/22 registered from the start as a 16" or 8" Krinker Plinker kit. Just say the word

Mark

 

[cantom]

Where the law is vague, a written opinion from the experts at the agency in charge of administering the act carrys weight. Rebel is correct that this does not preclude a reversal later, however it pretty much guarentees that it won't turn into a criminal matter.

If I was building one, I would be tempted to get the 8 inch model, and have it re-registered as a restricted. In that way, you have both the written opinion and their act of re-registering the gun to support your legal status.

What the hell good is a restricted rimfire? You can only carry it to ranges approved for restricted rifles. No thanks. By registering it thusly, if they change their mind and say they're not acceptable, they'll be after it. If you keep it non restricted(legally) and they decide to grab, you can easily put your stock barrel back on and ditch the short tube. Best of both worlds no?

I am interested in a Krinker, but it will be non-restricted so I can actually use it for anything a .22 is legal for. Plinking for example.

Somebody mentioned something I want to know more about- the rule is, 660mm long when ready to fire? Does this mean you could have the stock folded and less than 660mm long, but when the stock is opened and with welded flash hider it's over 660mm long, it's legal that way? Must it be impossible to fire when folded to make it legal shorter than the dimension? One could weld something to the stock to obstruct firing it when folded??

 

[dumbguy]

[...]
In reviewing this application and by following your measurements, it is understood that with the installation of this kit, your overall length will fall below the 660 minimum limit if folded, therefore a firearms classification change from non-restricted to restricted would then be in order. ...
[...]
Regards,

George​

The gentleman from CFC-CAFC definately seems to be saying that a <26" Krinker would be a kosher Restricted firearm.

(Contrary to the previous belief of most folks on this board: That shortening a non-restricted rifle below 26" would be illegal -- commercial modification or not.)

My concern is that this particular comment from George is more of an aside in answering a different question : Perhaps he didn't consider the parts of the Firearms Act that Rebel Rouser references above.

The direct question would be something like:

"Would installing the folding-stock 8" Krinker Kit on a Ruger 10/22 be an illegal modification, or would it produce a legal firearm which could be re-registered as Restricted."​

-- Dumbguy

 

[Questar]

... Contrary to the previous belief of most folks on this board: That shortening a non-restricted rifle below 26" would be illegal -- commercial modification or not.

-- Dumbguy

Where in the Firearms Act does it say "shortening a non-restricted rifle..."?

What the act says is "... a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun...". It makes no distinction between non-restricted or restricted. It also doesn't say shortened. It does make specific reference to sawing or cutting and it is on that basis that various officials have based their interpretation that "altered" was never intended to apply to the installation of a commercial kit or modification. CFC has clearly stated that the installation of a commercially available barrel or kit does not constitute an "alteration" as referred to in the Act.

There are hundreds of owners on this Forum who own AR's that were originally registered with barrels over 457mm and who now have uppers on those AR's that are 16", 11.5", 10.5", etc.. If you interpret the act to read every change is an "alteration" as defined by the Act then all of those owners have created Prohibited Firearms.

If you want to get technical, there are a lot of people on these forums that talk about cutting down their 16" AR's to 14.5" and 11.5", etc. According to the wording of the Firearms Act such an action is illegal. The act clearly states that if you cut or saw the barrel of your rifle and the end result is a firearm over 660mm with a barrel length under 457mm you have created a Prohibited Firearm... it doesn't matter what you started with... technically this would be a clear violation of the Act.

Here is the direct wording from the Firearms Act... It defines a Prohibited Firearm as:

"prohibited firearm" « arme à feu prohibée »
"prohibited firearm" means

(a) a handgun that

(i) has a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length, or

(ii) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge,

but does not include any such handgun that is prescribed, where the handgun is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union,

(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,

(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or

(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,

(c) an automatic firearm, whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger, or

(d) any firearm that is prescribed to be a prohibited firearm;