Kropatchek ~ I give up.

sean69

sean69

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Hi all;

Thought this might fit just slightly better here [in black powder] rather than the reloading thread, just cuz...

I've been looking for brass [new or used] for my Kropatchek since I got the damn thing with zero luck - Buffalo arms has it, but won't ship cases to Canada... so here I am contemplating making cases from something else.

Has anyone done this? What cases do I start out with? I'll have to use cast bullets? what is the correct size? [gas check?]

Has anyone got any Kropatchek recopies?

[has anyone got a spare cross key for the bayonet lug?]

-thanks
-sean
 
I've got two Kropatchek 1886 rifles.....one long rifle the other a short both with full military wood and all numbers matching...even have the bayos however the bayo numbers do not match the rifles and I'm in the same boat as you....no ammo,brass etc to be found....they are taking up space. I'm almost ready to sell them.
 
There's nothing easy about making ammo for this gun, hence a major reason why they're not popular.

You'll need to make your own brass. The best choice is from 348 Win, which is a wee bit short and possibly a little bit large in diameter at the case head. Second choice is 8X50R Lebel which is shorter yet (but tolerably so), but sure to have the right casehead diameter, possibly even a bit undersized (again, tolerably so). Both will require that the rim be bevelled, like you see for the 43 Mauser. This is lathe work.

Bullets are usually about 0.326", so they're not standard, but are avalaible cast - use 220-250 gr bullets.

Good powder combinations are 30.0 grs of H4198 or 35.0 grs of IMR-3031.

For dies, you can buy special order 8mm Krop dies, but you can make do with 8X50R Lebel dies as well.
 
Same here - I have the standard infantry rifle.... with bayonet, not matching either. Here's something fun:

my bayo #866 or #998 depending how you hold it... ;)
rifle is K303 [bolt does not match]

your bayonets or mine match anything?

I WILL shoot this gun if I have to buy a lathe and turn my own brass... gimme a poke first before you EE them if you ever decide to sell. :)



wolf19534 said:
I've got two Kropatchek 1886 rifles.....one long rifle the other a short both with full military wood and all numbers matching...even have the bayos however the bayo numbers do not match the rifles and I'm in the same boat as you....no ammo,brass etc to be found....they are taking up space. I'm almost ready to sell them.
Click to expand...
 
ok - good info, I can actually get the brass done on a lathe [buddy] but you say the bullets are "available" meaning if I look hard enough for a .326 bullet, I will eventually find them?

Thanks!



Andy said:
There's nothing easy about making ammo for this gun, hence a major reason why they're not popular.

You'll need to make your own brass. The best choice is from 348 Win, which is a wee bit short and possibly a little bit large in diameter at the case head. Second choice is 8X50R Lebel which is shorter yet (but tolerably so), but sure to have the right casehead diameter, possibly even a bit undersized (again, tolerably so). Both will require that the rim be bevelled, like you see for the 43 Mauser. This is lathe work.

Bullets are usually about 0.326", so they're not standard, but are avalaible cast - use 220-250 gr bullets.

Good powder combinations are 30.0 grs of H4198 or 35.0 grs of IMR-3031.

For dies, you can buy special order 8mm Krop dies, but you can make do with 8X50R Lebel dies as well.
Click to expand...
 
my bayos #XX943 and #11380 and scabbard numbers #T356 and #N455. Long rifle serial #A808....all numbers matching and Short rifle serial #C703 all numbers matching
 
Hmmm my scabbard is not numbered - only an acceptance mark on the frog stud/clip/whatever. where should the numbers be?


wolf19534 said:
my bayos #XX943 and #11380 and scabbard numbers #T356 and #N455. Long rifle serial #A808....all numbers matching and Short rifle serial #C703 all numbers matching
Click to expand...
 
Just to chime in here. I'm reloading for an old 1907 Winchester that takes the obsolete .351WSL. My situation is easier since the .351 is a straight walled case I can use .223 brass and trim just under the shoulder. My issue is with bullet size since .352 is RARE! I can't even find a bullet swage in that size so I made my own. I used an 'S' bit (.348") and drilled through an old orphaned socket from a set I didn't need. I just hammer my .358 cast lead bullets through and voila.....351-.352" cast lead with most of the lube ring still intact! If I'm really careful and use lube I can sometimes hammer jacketed bullets through without losing the jacket.
 
Yeah I had one of those rifles, too. It was the only gun in my collection that never got fired! :( In a gun digest from circa 1994-95 there was an article on the Guedes rifle, there would be helpful info there. I think he used .348 to make cases. A note on .348 brass, it tends to be smaller on the base than the books say. They say to turn the base down to make 8mm. Lebel, but if you did, it would make the finished case way undersize.
 
From the Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions:

CARTRIDGE: 8 x 60R Kropatchek
OTHER NAMES:
8 x 60R Guedes
DIA: .318
BALLISTEK NO: 318D
NAI NO: RMB 34322 / 4.309
DATA SOURCE: Hoyem Vol.2
HISTORICAL DATA: Portugal circa 1885.
NOTES: The Guedes rounds is of .323" dia. and has a . 621" dia. rim.

LOADING DATA
BULLET WT/TYPE 150/RN
POWDER WT./TYPE 30/IMR4198
VELOCITY (VSEC) 1700
SOURCE JJD

CASE PREPARATION
MAKE FROM: .450 N.E. (BELL). Turn rim to .618" dia., if necessary, and build up rim to .065" thick. Anneal case and form in 2-die form set. Trim to length, F/L size and chamfer.


Also, Rustywood . ca has 8x60 Kropatschek listed on their Bertram brass page as a custom order.
 
And the Guedes cases are going to be not easy to find either, right? ;)

Rustywood, $180?! holy, that's like $3.60 each..... I think we'll try to make some first.
 
Yes the Bertram brass is expensive but it is better than having none available at all. Bertram is a small company in Australia.

Slug the bore first before choosing a bullet. I have seen so much variation from published numbers on antique guns that the only way to be certain is to slug the bore. If you can't find a suitable bullet you will have to look at casting your own which isn't that difficult. Custom molds can be ordered from several different companies. It seems that with casting, a bullet can always be solved. The hardest part is the brass so figure that out first.
 
Set the shoulder of 348 WCF back and neck size in 8mm Lebel die til case chambers. Bevel rim of 348 case to match bolt face. Groove size of this rifle is .329-330". Lee makes a .330" mold for 8x56R Mannlicher. From measureing the bore and groove size of Guedes, Kropatschek and 8mm Austrian Mannlichers they appear to be within tolerance of being the same.
 
green said:
Set the shoulder of 348 WCF back and neck size in 8mm Lebel die til case chambers. Bevel rim of 348 case to match bolt face. Groove size of this rifle is .329-330". Lee makes a .330" mold for 8x56R Mannlicher. From measureing the bore and groove size of Guedes, Kropatschek and 8mm Austrian Mannlichers they appear to be within tolerance of being the same.
Click to expand...

Handloaders manual says .318 (above), Andy says .326 Green says .329-.330.

Slug the bore and find out what yours really is. It is the ONLY way to be certain. If you have 2 Kropatchek rifles you are reloading for slug both of them. You might be surprised at how different they are.

Pretty good chance the mold Green mentions will work. If your lucky and your bore slugs to .328-.329 then you can use the Lee .329 sizing die. ht tp://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/lube-and-sizing-kit/
If it is smaller than that you will have to hone a smaller (.314, .323) sizing die up to the correct size.
 
I agree, best to slug it.


Clotho said:
Handloaders manual says .318 (above), Andy says .326 Green says .329-.330.

Slug the bore and find out what yours really is. It is the ONLY way to be certain. If you have 2 Kropatchek rifles you are reloading for slug both of them. You might be surprised at how different they are.

Pretty good chance the mold Green mentions will work. If your lucky and your bore slugs to .328-.329 then you can use the Lee .329 sizing die. ht tp://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/lube-and-sizing-kit/
If it is smaller than that you will have to hone a smaller (.314, .323) sizing die up to the correct size.
Click to expand...
 
Go back to the Buffalo Arms site, and look at their case forming dies. They sell an RCBS die set for $89.95 to form 8x60 Kropatchek from 348Win.
Item no. RCB58225. The site says "temporarily out of stock, back orders OK"
 
tjsudbury said:
Go back to the Buffalo Arms site, and look at their case forming dies. They sell an RCBS die set for $89.95 to form 8x60 Kropatchek from 348Win.
Item no. RCB58225. The site says "temporarily out of stock, back orders OK"
Click to expand...

Very good idea.

CH4D . com also lists Kropatchek dies on their site. They have 2 types, 8X56 and 8X60. They also sell forming and trim dies. They ship to Canada no problem. They are really backlogged at the moment however so if it isn't on the shelf the wait time for custom orders is 6 months or more (they are a manufacturer). If you call them they will be happy to check if they have what you want on the shelf.
 
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