L85A1 Introduction & Range Practice by Noweigan Troops.
What is with the jamming issue?
What is with the jamming issue?
L85 Jams
- Thread starter Riflechair
- Start date
Scarecrow said:
Hehe...I like the concept of British cars, both from the old(eg Brit chassis with American power) and new alike, but they can't seem to make the finer details work.
The SA80s were also serviced and tuned by HK awhile back. I guess problem was just too much to fix without re-engineering the entire thing.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I saw two failure to feeds, and an improper mag insertion. Not to mention a heavy smack to make it seat. That is a mag problem, not a gun problem. Although if the mag catch is too close to tolerance it could be part of the chain of events.
The Brits sold off their RG-built 30 round mags and bought new US-built mags about 2000-01 during one of their overhaul programs. Which is why there are so many cheap Brit mags in the US.
The Brits sold off their RG-built 30 round mags and bought new US-built mags about 2000-01 during one of their overhaul programs. Which is why there are so many cheap Brit mags in the US.
Apparently a large part of the problem with them originally came from the fact that Royal Ordinance made something like 50 changes from the approved design when the contract was signed with MoD - the delivered rifles didn't match the prototypes, with disasterous consequences. The Heckler & Koch upgraded models, however, are said to be much better.
I have Steve Raws book the last enfield. You could not make up the story that goes with that rifle. The first firer failed to load the weapon. It isnt meant to be slapped on the mag base. I remember the RG mags arriving and they were years ahead of the colt ones. The new HK mags are more curved and weigh half as much again empty as the RG. There were a few difficulties with soft brass causing a build up on the face of the breech block which stopped the ejector from working and lead to NDs on the make safe or unload.
I liked my L85A1 and to be honest it didnt get dirty enough to cause any problems. 50 Changes is a small number when something like 140 were made to the FN to produce the L1A1. It suffered from cost problems. The MoD wanted something cheap. ROF wanted to keep selling guns and the Govt wanted to sell ROF with contracts. Thanks to the US and the cancellation of the L9A1 (EM2) we lost the chance for a bullpup rifle that was built by machining not stamping. The tolerances inside the L85 make some AKs look tight. If we had used the .280/7mm round in 1950 we would be wondering now why the yanks bothered with 5.56 at all.
I liked my L85A1 and to be honest it didnt get dirty enough to cause any problems. 50 Changes is a small number when something like 140 were made to the FN to produce the L1A1. It suffered from cost problems. The MoD wanted something cheap. ROF wanted to keep selling guns and the Govt wanted to sell ROF with contracts. Thanks to the US and the cancellation of the L9A1 (EM2) we lost the chance for a bullpup rifle that was built by machining not stamping. The tolerances inside the L85 make some AKs look tight. If we had used the .280/7mm round in 1950 we would be wondering now why the yanks bothered with 5.56 at all.
The EM2 was far ahead of its time and would still be in use today if the US had not forced everyone to tow the line. They wavered constantly over rifle designs and still do so today. Their inconstancy is politically driven, then they force the results on their allies which has disasterous results.
50 changes isn't a lot, you're right - but the impression I got from the Brits I was getting schooled by was that the changes were made AFTER the approval of the design, and were not approved by the MoD in the first place.
No changes were requested unless by the Ordnance Board. this is basically to ensure that all changes and implications to production are taken into account and funding is authorised.
This happened however what didnt happen was the completion of each set of trials after each modification was made meaning that some rifles in the same comparitive trials would have different mod states and also that the impact on production and costing wasnt taken into account. That is the QA engineer in me talking, as an end user, which is what I was back then, I had first hand experience of it. The rifle was issued as the L85A1. It had a mag release which caught on your kit, clothing and the chest plate for your INIBA body armour. this was an expensive mistake and a temporary measure was to put a piece of plate around the catch. It was held in place with Araldite, a 2 pac compound ahesive which as the surfaces were left as finished came undone in the rain. It rains some in Northern Ireland! Eventually this was remedied at the factory but this rifle was so close to being another Ross nRifle if it wasnt for the MoD insistance that it would work. The dreadfull L86A1 the lsw has been ditched in most infantry units and GPMGs retained/reissued or the Minimi which is now available is taking over.
All this goes to show really is that defence is far too important to allow it to be entrusted to politicians and accountants.
This happened however what didnt happen was the completion of each set of trials after each modification was made meaning that some rifles in the same comparitive trials would have different mod states and also that the impact on production and costing wasnt taken into account. That is the QA engineer in me talking, as an end user, which is what I was back then, I had first hand experience of it. The rifle was issued as the L85A1. It had a mag release which caught on your kit, clothing and the chest plate for your INIBA body armour. this was an expensive mistake and a temporary measure was to put a piece of plate around the catch. It was held in place with Araldite, a 2 pac compound ahesive which as the surfaces were left as finished came undone in the rain. It rains some in Northern Ireland! Eventually this was remedied at the factory but this rifle was so close to being another Ross nRifle if it wasnt for the MoD insistance that it would work. The dreadfull L86A1 the lsw has been ditched in most infantry units and GPMGs retained/reissued or the Minimi which is now available is taking over.
All this goes to show really is that defence is far too important to allow it to be entrusted to politicians and accountants.
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Even if it weren't, exactly where the hell would you or I get one from? They produced just enough for the British military and that was it. Once they're retired from service they'll be melted down to serve as sewer grates in Nottingham and London.
I doubt if there is enough real metal in them to melt down for anything more than a few more medals. The rifle itself isnt quite the POS that a lot of people (Many who have yet to fire it) say it is. It suffers from a poor reputation based on the A1 model which itself was really issued without robust ancillaries or a method of cleaning regime that would ensure it worked in any terrain. Sound familiar? 1960's Vietnam? The rifle is very different to any that have been made before therefore the normal daily cleaning regime should have been updated to reflect this. Typical MoD. the army itself would teach exactlt what was needed if the rifle had been fully tested in each environment with unbiased real life tests. It is a very accurate rifle and a fair few problems have come to light which could have been prevented or cured had the ammunition propellant been an exact match of the US ammo. The NATO Spec for it is too tolerant, allows for a slower charge than this rifle needs to function perfectly.Canuck I Am said:
Any way I liked my POS for the year that I carried it and the few occaisions that I went back to the SLR I was happy enough!
The SAS and earlier the Malayan Scouts were the first users of the AR15, In fact late Malaya and in Borneo we as a Country made the first govt purchases of the system as we were running low on M1 carbines. The SAS kept this up with the jungle warfare tradition and this was passed to the rest of the army. When leightweight automatics were needed in NI a number were sent from the Jungle warfare School and eventually M79 and M203 were acquired to complement. Most of these were phased out with the issue of the L85A1 but in Armagh the GPMG was retained in the light and SF role to allow a better response than 30 rd mags from the L86A1. The L86A1 will be withdrawn allowing HK to produce carbines for tank crew from the parts. the SAS etc, as there is a large SF community in the UK Services now, will still use what suits the role they have to undertake. They have the LSW in their armouries (which is decidedly odd) and also 21 & 23 regiments also use the L85A2 as the basic weapon. With all SF there is a choice of weapon to suit the role. 22 were using M16A2 and have recently purchased diemaco models as the A2s were out of warranty support.
This info is direct through MoD purchasing people so is reasonably reliable. the British Army has a tradition of make do but also is happy to provide what is necessary if a budget can be found.
This info is direct through MoD purchasing people so is reasonably reliable. the British Army has a tradition of make do but also is happy to provide what is necessary if a budget can be found.
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Thanks for the info Tim C. I however have never seen any picture of an SAS trooper using SA80 in combat operations. Their choice of rifles seemed to always be M16A2, M203, Minimi or in the earlier days, the venerable AR15/M16 and L1A1 SLR.
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Well I can give you first hand info on that score. I used to work for an unit that provided support to them. We wouldtake over a rifle platoon patrol area in NI and do its patrols. This would allow a couple of the Hereford Hooligans the opportunity to look close up at targets and ambush sites where the risk of compromise for covert recces was too high. In this situation we would go green. Try and mimic the rifle coy in its dress, headress and weapons so as not to arouse suspicion of the locals. Very often we found on turning up in as issued kit that the local rifle platoon all wore SAS smocks, camouflaged their weapoms etc and we actually stood out. These times the boys would carry the same weapon scales as the local platoon patrols so SA80, lsw and gpmg.
"THEY" all looked about 10 years older than anyone else and were definetly mature "old sweats" at their game. Tools for the job as they say. When Gerry Adams was ambushed by loyalist terrorists in Belfast in the 90's the troops that foiled the ambush were dressed and equipped as UDR. Blending in has always been a necessary skill and they do it very well.
Little things would give it away, no rank but local unit headress. Everyone issued watches wheras it was usually nco's only and much better comms than anyone else.
"THEY" all looked about 10 years older than anyone else and were definetly mature "old sweats" at their game. Tools for the job as they say. When Gerry Adams was ambushed by loyalist terrorists in Belfast in the 90's the troops that foiled the ambush were dressed and equipped as UDR. Blending in has always been a necessary skill and they do it very well.
Little things would give it away, no rank but local unit headress. Everyone issued watches wheras it was usually nco's only and much better comms than anyone else.
