L85 Jams

[cybershooters]

Bullpup is the way to go. The Irish, Australians, IDF, Austrians, French all use BP's. With todays's urban troubles and tight manouvering certainly would be handier.

I wonder if someday there would ever be a 7.62mm Nato bullpup? I would love to check that out.

For the Falklands the L1a1 was fantastic - open ground, same round as the gimpy and rock and roll...... Mind you I remeber a great number of paras using the L2a3 as well and still survived (don't ask me how????) I wonder how the L85 would have held up back then?

I personally hated the L1A1, it was just far too long, which is why the SA80 came about largely.

I'm not particularly enamoured with bullpups, they all have crappy balance and crappy trigger pulls, the FA MAS is about the best one for balance and trigger pull. Only the F2000 is properly ambidextrous. Personally I think a folding stock is a better solution to the length problem.

 

[TimC]

The L9A1 was redesigned for the 7.62mm Nato after the US effectively blackmailed us into accepting the calibre. It didnt work, more to the point there seemed little political will to fund the work after shelving the L9 (EM2). Sad really but the FN FAL was already available in the calibre (Albeit in metric dimension) and had been a reasonable performer in the NATO trials using the ammo for the L9A1, the .280 pr whatever it really was. The sad thing is that the US ammo companies could have kept us supplied even if we had retained an independant calibre through contracts in the same way as in WW1.
The folding stock doesnt allow accurate fire from a shorter rifle which is why the bullpup was designed. Having fired from folded and telescoped stock weapons on single and auto its not something I would do from choice.

 

[KevinB]

Current teletocks are pretty rigid -- and I shoot my M4A1 with the stock shut while wearing body armour -- I am not a fan of the manual of arms with the bullpups.

I shot the SA80A1 and A2 -- not impressed -- the HK mag was the best think about it. Guys in Iraq have complained that they would prefer the C8SFW/L119A1 -- perhaps SF envy -- or the fact that the L119A1 works better... likely a mix of the two.

 

[TimC]

I meant that to shoot with a folding stock folded isnt as accurate as a bullpup but to take time when debussing and unfold the stock adds time. I've tried it. Admittedly the HK series telescoping stocks were a lot better but could leave you feeling short quite literally when accurate fire from a part closed stock was tried and really a fully open stock was needed. I still miss my L1A1.

 

[Six Star]

I always drew an L2A3 Sterling SMG from the armoury when going on patrol with both the Army and the UDR in NI. Bringing an SLR (L1A1) into action from the front seat of a Landrover or Shorland armoured car was almost impossible.
IMHO, the "stoppages" in the L85 video were ALL operator induced. He didn't ensure his mag was fully inserted and latched, and he didn't pull back on the cocking handle fare enough to chamber a round (twice). Banging on the base of the mag to seat it is a no-no anyway...the proper method of inserting an "AR"-type magazine is to insert it until you hear/feel a 'click' and then pull down on it.
I'm not defending the L85 (SA80A1/2), but let's be fair about what's happening in the video. You can hear the Brit instructor in the background coaching the shooter..."magazine.....magazine".

 

[Juster]

Agreed, you can jam anything with incorrect operation. I wanted an ambi bullpup L1A1, but they wouldn't listen. The Sterling would still have its uses, as long as you seated the mag correctly it would always go bang.

 

[cybershooters]

I meant that to shoot with a folding stock folded isnt as accurate as a bullpup but to take time when debussing and unfold the stock adds time. I've tried it. Admittedly the HK series telescoping stocks were a lot better but could leave you feeling short quite literally when accurate fire from a part closed stock was tried and really a fully open stock was needed. I still miss my L1A1.

It takes literally a second to unfold the stock on a SG550, maybe two or three seconds to extend the stock on an M4. The stock on the SG550 is so strong and rigid that SIG had to re-design it so that it broke more easily, because there were cases of people dropping their rifles and denting the receiver. I've seen video at the RUAG factory of them testing rifle grenades from Stgw 90s, and believe me that is one seriously strong stock.

Collapsible stocks have come a long way since the old H&K and AK-47 stocks.

 

[cybershooters]

IMHO, the "stoppages" in the L85 video were ALL operator induced. He didn't ensure his mag was fully inserted and latched,

Yeah, but like I said above, the SA80 has a really strong mag catch spring as a result of the NI experience. It's much tougher to get a magazine into the thing than with an AR-15, and the location of the mag well makes it even harder.

 

[Six Star]

Understood, Steve....but when did the Vikings turn into such girlie-men?
Have you heard any more "negative reports" regarding the L85 (or whatever it's correct nomenclature is now) from Iraq since the Marines' report condemning the rifle a few years ago?

 

[cantom]

I always drew an L2A3 Sterling SMG from the armoury when going on patrol with both the Army and the UDR in NI. Bringing an SLR (L1A1) into action from the front seat of a Landrover or Shorland armoured car was almost impossible.
IMHO, the "stoppages" in the L85 video were ALL operator induced. He didn't ensure his mag was fully inserted and latched, and he didn't pull back on the cocking handle fare enough to chamber a round (twice). Banging on the base of the mag to seat it is a no-no anyway...the proper method of inserting an "AR"-type magazine is to insert it until you hear/feel a 'click' and then pull down on it.
I'm not defending the L85 (SA80A1/2), but let's be fair about what's happening in the video. You can hear the Brit instructor in the background coaching the shooter..."magazine.....magazine".

That weapon looked really awkward...reach way around to the right for the cocking handle..the AR rifles do have the best ergonomics by far IMHO, easy mag insertions etc etc. That too strong mag release spring sounds very awkward too, who needs to be held up in life or death situations...

 

[Six Star]

That weapon looked really awkward...reach way around to the right for the cocking handle..

Not at all awkward...the cocking handle is angled up towards the operator and was quite easy to #### with the left hand very quickly. The Sterling also sat nicely in one's lap when sitting in the front of a vehicle.

the AR rifles do have the best ergonomics by far IMHO, easy mag insertions etc etc. That too strong mag release spring sounds very awkward too, who needs to be held up in life or death situations...

The AR rifle is indeed a very 'user-friendly' weapon once the muscle-memory converts from an L1A1.

 

[cantom]

Not at all awkward...the cocking handle is angled up towards the operator and was quite easy to #### with the left hand very quickly. The Sterling also sat nicely in one's lap when sitting in the front of a vehicle.


The AR rifle is indeed a very 'user-friendly' weapon once the muscle-memory converts from an L1A1.

Never having handled an L85, from that movie clip it looked like he was reaching a long way over to the right side to #### it...if you say it's easy that's good. It'd be nice to have the cocking handle in the same spot as the L1A1.

I found mag changes on the L1A1 a bit awkward as well plus manipulating the bolt hold open device held me up. I do think I'd prefer the Canadian system using stripper clips to top up the mag. I've always found rifles that require rocking the mag into place a bit touch and go, couldn't be fun to do under fire...this is true of AK types, Mini 14 etc. as well. Does the L85 mag insert straight up like an Armalite or rock in?

Of course, I've never been trained on the FN, just self taught.

 

[cybershooters]

Understood, Steve....but when did the Vikings turn into such girlie-men?
Have you heard any more "negative reports" regarding the L85 (or whatever it's correct nomenclature is now) from Iraq since the Marines' report condemning the rifle a few years ago?

I've spoken to people who've been over there, the only thing I've heard of other than the usual is sand getting into the TMH through the holes in the upper and fouling up the action.

If you want a rifle that is hard to get a magazine into though, you have to try an FA MAS G2, that thing is an absolute bleeping bunt. It's basically impossible without holding down the mag catch while putting the magazine into it, which is no simple task with a bullpup. You honestly risk crushing empty aluminum magazines if you just bang them in. Maybe once they're well used it's easier. Total lack of thought went into redesigning the catch when they went from the F1 model to the G2 model that uses STANAG magazines.

I still prefer it to the SA80 though, it has a better trigger and is better balanced, easier to #### as well. It's just that it's French. It's the Citroen of assault rifles, once you get the hang of it, it's not that bad.

 

[Six Star]

Never having handled an L85, from that movie clip it looked like he was reaching a long way over to the right side to #### it...if you say it's easy that's good. It'd be nice to have the cocking handle in the same spot as the L1A1.

Oops...sorry, cantom...I thought you were referring to the Sterling's cocking handle. Yes, the L85's cocking handle looks very awkward to operate with the left hand...I thought they were supposed to be ambi-dextrous?

I found mag changes on the L1A1 a bit awkward as well plus manipulating the bolt hold open device held me up. I do think I'd prefer the Canadian system using stripper clips to top up the mag. I've always found rifles that require rocking the mag into place a bit touch and go, couldn't be fun to do under fire...this is true of AK types, Mini 14 etc. as well. Does the L85 mag insert straight up like an Armalite or rock in?

Yes, any of the 'rock-in' type mags are hit-and-miss to insert. The L85 shares the same magazine as the AR, so it would insert and catch in the same manner. Just not as easily, apparently.

 

[TimC]

Oops...sorry, cantom...I thought you were referring to the Sterling's cocking handle. Yes, the L85's cocking handle looks very awkward to operate with the left hand...I thought they were supposed to be ambi-dextrous?



Yes, any of the 'rock-in' type mags are hit-and-miss to insert. The L85 shares the same magazine as the AR, so it would insert and catch in the same manner. Just not as easily, apparently.

The L85/86 series were produced in a trial that never made production for left handed operation. The Forces used a right handed only weapon (the Bren and L4) for over 60 years with no real problems apart from accuracy from lefties when firing right handed. I used one with an IWS and found it easier to shoot left eye right shoulder for balance with no accuracy loss out to 600 yards a night.
The L85 cannot be fired left handed, I have seen it tried, its painful. Lefties get trained for right handed use. The cocking handle is trained for left hand over the action whilst raising into the shoulder. If an LSW (L86) is used its only the SASC who would whine about using the right hand to #### the action. To be honest its uite usable from an ergonomics point of view and I have used L1, G3, HK53, LMG (L4), GPMG, SMG, not forgetting bolt action and lever action rifls both before and after my service. I usedthe early FAMAS in BAOR on an exchange with a French A/T unit, they didnt like our L1, cant think why but then the US troops didnt either. During one range day the US troops were unable to hit the Fig 11 tgts at 200 yards where the SLR was knocking them down at 300 and this on a gallery rather than ETR.
Anyhow its academic as no troop from another country would be completely au fait with drills and skills on a weapon including the local nuances of how to keep them working in sandpit conditions.