La Coruna Mauser value Please?

[mkrnel]

So you might have some different experience, your arguments however, are not convincing.
BTW it is not only my experience, but any serious Mauser collector is aware of the lousy Spanish steel ( is it the steel or the heat treatment? doesn't matter in the least ) used in the production of those guns.

Another BTW, just checked my world map and it seems Mexico didn't change its location, therefore didn't move to South America.

Believe what you want.

BTW, I'm interested in how did you find your Spanish M43 Mauser had soft steel? Did it wear out while you were using it?

I have owned and shot a Spanish La Coruna Mauser since about 1995 and shoot it often with full power Yugo and Turkish Military 8mm ammo that is on the very hot side and it is still as good as when I first got it.

I also know of a buddy who had one re-barreled to .270 Win and has been using it like that for about 20 years at least without issue. Sporting .270 Win ammo which is all he shoots in it is a 65,000 psi SAAMI spec cartridge.

Why are the FR-8 7.62mm/.308 Win rifles in such high demand if the steel in them is so crappy, never ever heard of FR-8 owners complaining about their rifles which is hard to understand as a very large percentage of them are just later 7.62mm rebarreled and slightly modified M43 Spanish Mausers and the factory .308 Win ammo shot regularly in them is a 62,000 psi cartridge too.

I have never seen or read a reliable account from a owner of a M43/M44 or FR-8 Spanish Mauser having a defective or soft steel action. I have heard the opposite but never seen this mysterious soft steel.

Per Wikipedia -

Toledo steel, known historically as unusually hard, is from Toledo, Spain, which has been a traditional sword-making, steel-working center since about 500 BC, and came to the attention of Rome when used by Hannibal in the Punic Wars. Soon, it became a standard source of weaponry for Roman legions.

Toledo steel was famed for its very high quality alloy, whereas Damascus steel, a competitor from the Middle Ages onward, was famed for a specific metal-working technique.

How about these other owners and users of Spanish M43 rifles arguments from other forums (US based ones) when asked by newbies about if their Spanish M43 Mauser having the so called soft steel syndrome -

"I have the "M44" (as many collectors call it), the Spanish Airforce issued M43. It has a different front sight and a few other details different than the regular Army M43. Oddly, my M44 and FR8 both have turned-down bolt handles - this was normally done on the Spanish sniper rifles, but mine don't have the sniper scope bases.
Some folks wrongly accuse these rifles of being made of inferior steel, but that is a myth - they are as strong and robust as any M98-type Mausers."

"Andy, a few years ago, the Spanish Mausers were very common. Now the imported numbers have dried up. I had a fair number of the M1943 Spanish Mausers and had no problems with them. I have read reports that the Spanish used too soft steel, but have never seen signs of this. I shot milsurp ammo and also reloaded for those rifles, keeping pressures in the same range as milsurp ammo. The rifles did not show signs of over pressure of any sort. Given two rifles of equal wear, the Spanish 1943 is every bit as good as are the German K98k rifles.
The Spanish M1916 carbines that were rechambered for 7.62x51mmNATO were probably a tad underdesigned for that conversion. The M1943 was built to handle 8x57mm Mauser cartridge pressures.
Best,
Steven"

"Andy, I really do believe that the small ring conversions to 308 did get the ball rolling on the myth that the Spaniards use soft steel. Spain has been making good steel since the days of El Cid!"

"Welcome to the forum!


The Spanish rifles with the so-called heat treating problems (actually it is some compounding factors and not really heat treatment) are the Model 93 mausers that were later modified as the M1916 rifles in 308 (7.62) caliber, or were converted to the FR-7 rifles. The locking lug systems and design of these originally 7mm Mausers do not stand up to a substantial battering with hotter 308 loads. However, the M43 Mauser (called M44 in the Air Force configuration) in 8mm was substantially beefier, and are not a problem.


Too bad your rifle has been modified - the original M44s are bringing a good collectors value these days."

"What I hate to see is what I refer to as "The Lemming Effect" - there are one or two reported cases of problems with a rifle, it gets written about somewhere, so and so heard that their brothers friend had one, --- it snowballs all to heck and everyone jumps on the band wagon, - before long it comes out "ALL SPANISH MAUSERS ARE BAD!"

OK - are we all supposed to build a bondfire and burn our rifles? Sarah Brady sure would be clapping her hands with glee!

Basically, I could do the same thing - say, VZ24 rifles. I have seen one with lug set back and it was obviously unsafe. I could do a big write up, so and so would chime in about their brother-in-laws friends rifle, and before long, low and behold - "ALL CZECH RIFLES ARE BAD" (In the background, Sarah Brady is handing you a pack of matches to light your bondfire).

What it boils down to is: If the rifle functions fine - don't use hot loads, and you should be fine! Do you think a whole country's army would be issued defective weapons?"


"I don't know why the later ones would be controversial. They're the '98 action, and that action has been used to build any number of magnum hunting rifles over the years.

I've got an FR-8, which is a 1943 model converted to 7.62 NATO with a lot of other modifications, and I shoot the heck out of it.

Most of the warnings I've heard are to not shoot commercial .308 Winchester ammo in the converted 1916's and FR-7's, but to stick with 7.62 NATO which is loaded to a bit lower pressure than commercial .308 ammo."

 

[jbmauser]

It would be interesting to have a M43 receiver tested. I personally think they would be built with a quality alloy but actually lab results would be nice to see. I'd also like to see results on a PH/Santa Barbara commercial action to see if they are the same as earlier military production. Having drilled and tapped both M43 and newer commercial actions I would say they are made from different steels but that's hardly a scientific test.

I'm surprised mkrnel that with the collecting experience you have, that you have had trouble getting a South American contract in good condition. You should seek some out. Brazilian 1908's, 1935's, Chilean 1912's, Argentine 1909's, etc., etc., are all super common in good plus condition with zero pitting and are absolute works of art. It would be worthwhile buying an example of one of these in excellent condition.

 

[mkrnel]

It would be interesting to have a M43 receiver tested. I personally think they would be built with a quality alloy but actually lab results would be nice to see. I'd also like to see results on a PH/Santa Barbara commercial action to see if they are the same as earlier military production. Having drilled and tapped both M43 and newer commercial actions I would say they are made from different steels but that's hardly a scientific test.

I'm surprised mkrnel that with the collecting experience you have, that you have had trouble getting a South American contract in good condition. You should seek some out. Brazilian 1908's, 1935's, Chilean 1912's, Argentine 1909's, etc., etc., are all super common in good plus condition with zero pitting and are absolute works of art. It would be worthwhile buying an example of one of these in excellent condition.

I have had like new but never issued (came into Canada in original sealed zinc crates from Germany via Brazil) M1935 and M1908 Brazilian Mausers. They are far different from the ones carried and used in the jungles over many decades by the Brazilian soldiers. That is why I used this qualifier - "way better shape than the average South American issued Mauser" in my above earlier post.

I also have had a fair few Argentine M1891 and M1909 Mausers in excellent condition and have hand select a couple of Chilean M1912's from the Importers shelf stock of a couple hundred he had on his rack, I have a decent amount of experience with them and actually like them a lot. But I have found that while the average issued ones while they may look good above the wood line a lot have rust and pitting under it from being carried, used and stored in their humid jungle environment in a lot of these South American countries.

Here are some I have owned -

 

[polaris]

Believe what you want.

BTW, I'm interested in how did you find your Spanish M43 Mauser had soft steel? Did it wear out while you were using it?

I have owned and shot a Spanish La Coruna Mauser since about 1995 and shoot it often with full power Yugo and Turkish Military 8mm ammo that is on the very hot side and it is still as good as when I first got it.

I also know of a buddy who had one re-barreled to .270 Win and has been using it like that for about 20 years at least without issue. Sporting .270 Win ammo which is all he shoots in it is a 65,000 psi SAAMI spec cartridge.

Why are the FR-8 7.62mm/.308 Win rifles in such high demand if the steel in them is so crappy, never ever heard of FR-8 owners complaining about their rifles which is hard to understand as a very large percentage of them are just later 7.62mm rebarreled and slightly modified M43 Spanish Mausers and the factory .308 Win ammo shot regularly in them is a 62,000 psi cartridge too.

I have never seen or read a reliable account from a owner of a M43/M44 or FR-8 Spanish Mauser having a defective or soft steel action. I have heard the opposite but never seen this mysterious soft steel.

Per Wikipedia -

Toledo steel, known historically as unusually hard, is from Toledo, Spain, which has been a traditional sword-making, steel-working center since about 500 BC, and came to the attention of Rome when used by Hannibal in the Punic Wars. Soon, it became a standard source of weaponry for Roman legions.

Toledo steel was famed for its very high quality alloy, whereas Damascus steel, a competitor from the Middle Ages onward, was famed for a specific metal-working technique.

How about these other owners and users of Spanish M43 rifles arguments from other forums (US based ones) when asked by newbies about if their Spanish M43 Mauser having the so called soft steel syndrome -

"I have the "M44" (as many collectors call it), the Spanish Airforce issued M43. It has a different front sight and a few other details different than the regular Army M43. Oddly, my M44 and FR8 both have turned-down bolt handles - this was normally done on the Spanish sniper rifles, but mine don't have the sniper scope bases.
Some folks wrongly accuse these rifles of being made of inferior steel, but that is a myth - they are as strong and robust as any M98-type Mausers."

"Andy, a few years ago, the Spanish Mausers were very common. Now the imported numbers have dried up. I had a fair number of the M1943 Spanish Mausers and had no problems with them. I have read reports that the Spanish used too soft steel, but have never seen signs of this. I shot milsurp ammo and also reloaded for those rifles, keeping pressures in the same range as milsurp ammo. The rifles did not show signs of over pressure of any sort. Given two rifles of equal wear, the Spanish 1943 is every bit as good as are the German K98k rifles.
The Spanish M1916 carbines that were rechambered for 7.62x51mmNATO were probably a tad underdesigned for that conversion. The M1943 was built to handle 8x57mm Mauser cartridge pressures.
Best,
Steven"

"Andy, I really do believe that the small ring conversions to 308 did get the ball rolling on the myth that the Spaniards use soft steel. Spain has been making good steel since the days of El Cid!"

"Welcome to the forum!


The Spanish rifles with the so-called heat treating problems (actually it is some compounding factors and not really heat treatment) are the Model 93 mausers that were later modified as the M1916 rifles in 308 (7.62) caliber, or were converted to the FR-7 rifles. The locking lug systems and design of these originally 7mm Mausers do not stand up to a substantial battering with hotter 308 loads. However, the M43 Mauser (called M44 in the Air Force configuration) in 8mm was substantially beefier, and are not a problem.


Too bad your rifle has been modified - the original M44s are bringing a good collectors value these days."

"What I hate to see is what I refer to as "The Lemming Effect" - there are one or two reported cases of problems with a rifle, it gets written about somewhere, so and so heard that their brothers friend had one, --- it snowballs all to heck and everyone jumps on the band wagon, - before long it comes out "ALL SPANISH MAUSERS ARE BAD!"

OK - are we all supposed to build a bondfire and burn our rifles? Sarah Brady sure would be clapping her hands with glee!

Basically, I could do the same thing - say, VZ24 rifles. I have seen one with lug set back and it was obviously unsafe. I could do a big write up, so and so would chime in about their brother-in-laws friends rifle, and before long, low and behold - "ALL CZECH RIFLES ARE BAD" (In the background, Sarah Brady is handing you a pack of matches to light your bondfire).

What it boils down to is: If the rifle functions fine - don't use hot loads, and you should be fine! Do you think a whole country's army would be issued defective weapons?"


"I don't know why the later ones would be controversial. They're the '98 action, and that action has been used to build any number of magnum hunting rifles over the years.

I've got an FR-8, which is a 1943 model converted to 7.62 NATO with a lot of other modifications, and I shoot the heck out of it.

Most of the warnings I've heard are to not shoot commercial .308 Winchester ammo in the converted 1916's and FR-7's, but to stick with 7.62 NATO which is loaded to a bit lower pressure than commercial .308 ammo."

Is that all you got? Copy and paste from the internet without referencing? Some might call this nonsense.

Toledo is a nice city (at least it was when I visited, and it is not in South America), but has lost its glory in steel making over 500years ago.

No proof, no facts, no nothing just hearsay at its best.

How about lose actions, excessive headspace and excessive wear of action parts? all this is very common, and I observed it on most if not all La Coruna Mausers.

 

[mkrnel]

Is that all you got? Copy and paste from the internet without referencing? Some might call this nonsense.

Toledo is a nice city (at least it was when I visited, and it is not in South America), but has lost its glory in steel making over 500years ago.

No proof, no facts, no nothing just hearsay at its best.

How about lose actions, excessive headspace and excessive wear of action parts? all this is very common, and I observed it on most if not all La Coruna Mausers.

Fine, you seem to have all the answers yet can provide no solid documented references or clear cut proof to them having been made from soft steel other than your expert opinion, here's your chance to give me some solid documented proof and referencing of the soft steel in these M98 Mauser's.

So don't buy anymore of them, I'm sure they will feel real lonely missing your attention and affection. I know I will not lose any sleep over the matter.

Also did you sell all your ones with excessive headspace, loose actions and worn parts to gullible buyers? or did you warn them first that they were buying a lemon from you?

The way you seem to be a expert on the matter infers you have had a awful lot of them thru your hands to make such a huge sweeping judgement and broad generalization on all these Spanish M98 rifles and their actions.

 

[jbmauser]

To me there can be no doubt that German, Swedish, and Czech Mausers made in the early 1900's were far superior in both quality of metal and heat treat to Spanish made ones of the same era. One would hope they had corrected this by the 40's and 50's but it does give some food for thought. There were a lot of advances in metallurgy and heat treating in this time frame but it also isn't that far away from when they were making a substandard product.

RC hardness testing would be easy enough to do but to truly know, a sample of the steel would have to be sent off to a lab of some sort. I've always thought this would be interesting to do to many makers and era's of Mausers but I have no idea how much this costs or where to have it done.

I have personally seen some extreme pressure abuse of commercial Spanish made M98's (Parker Hale) that didn't end in catastrophic failure so certainly by the 60's they were making a high quality action. I wouldn't be afraid to use a commercial action for any build.

 

[mkrnel]

To me there can be no doubt that German, Swedish, and Czech Mausers made in the early 1900's were far superior in both quality of metal and heat treat to Spanish made ones of the same era. One would hope they had corrected this by the 40's and 50's but it does give some food for thought. There were a lot of advances in metallurgy and heat treating in this time frame but it also isn't that far away from when they were making a substandard product.

RC hardness testing would be easy enough to do but to truly know, a sample of the steel would have to be sent off to a lab of some sort. I've always thought this would be interesting to do to many makers and era's of Mausers but I have no idea how much this costs or where to have it done.

I have personally seen some extreme pressure abuse of commercial Spanish made M98's (Parker Hale) that didn't end in catastrophic failure so certainly by the 60's they were making a high quality action. I wouldn't be afraid to use a commercial action for any build.

They were building Spanish military M98 Mauser's from the exact same steel at the same production factory they were building actions that they then sold to Parker Hale and others to make up factory sporting rifles.

The Spanish 7.62mm (.308 Win) FR-8 rifle are mostly made up from surplus M43 Mauser's that had worn out barrels, they went on the see even more hard use for at least another 15 years in Spanish service before being sold off as surplus and are in very strong demand on the used gun/ex-mil market by both collectors and shooters.

I had a 1944 dated receiver, Spanish FR-8 that I used as a handy bush hunting rifle for years without any issue shooting factory .308 Win ammo and sold it to a friend who still has it and loves it.

Put a decent looking Spanish FR-8 on the EE for $500 and see how long it lasts.

 

[mkrnel]

To me there can be no doubt that German, Swedish, and Czech Mausers made in the early 1900's were far superior in both quality of metal and heat treat to Spanish made ones of the same era. One would hope they had corrected this by the 40's and 50's but it does give some food for thought. There were a lot of advances in metallurgy and heat treating in this time frame but it also isn't that far away from when they were making a substandard product.

RC hardness testing would be easy enough to do but to truly know, a sample of the steel would have to be sent off to a lab of some sort. I've always thought this would be interesting to do to many makers and era's of Mausers but I have no idea how much this costs or where to have it done.

I have personally seen some extreme pressure abuse of commercial Spanish made M98's (Parker Hale) that didn't end in catastrophic failure so certainly by the 60's they were making a high quality action. I wouldn't be afraid to use a commercial action for any build.

Here is a article about how a bunch of the much older model M1893 Spanish Mauser's built by Spain's other arsenal - Oviedo from 1896 to 1923 and then later converted to .308 Win that were tested at the respected H.P. White ballistic labs -

http://www.hpwhite.com/

 

[jbmauser]

I've read that article before and it's a testament to the Mauser design. Even with the poorer steels used in the Spanish M93's the actions held together at some pretty high pressures.

 

[mkrnel]

I've read that article before and it's a testament to the Mauser design. Even with the poorer steels used in the Spanish M93's the actions held together at some pretty high pressures.

Yeah at over 98,000 psi before damage! That's over double what their design was supposed to be able to handle too.

Imagine how good they could be if made out of decent steel, you could then use them with loads hot enough to shoot into outer space.

It's a real pity they are only junk rifles with crappy steel in them, I was thinking of trading my one in on a Italian Carcano or Japanese Arisaka but then I read a lot on the internet that some experts claim those rifles are crappy and unsafe too with crappy steel in them and a poor design.

I thought of a Ross but then read how the Canadian soldiers were throwing them away in total disgust during WW1.

Maybe I can swap it for a Turkish made M98 rifle bolt action, after all it is not Spanish made so it should be a good rifle too. But then again, some say they have soft receivers too. This is starting to get hard finding a rifle that has nobody on the internet saying something bad about.

What to do, what to do!