Ladder interpretation, please
- Thread starter 358Rooster
- Start date
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Since you know they exist, figuring it out is simply putting up flags and shooting under the varied conditions.
First tune your rifle load so you know how the groups form in calm air. Then track how the groups change when the wind vary.
Always aim in the same place, at the same distance, using the same target. The goal is to understand cause and effect.
Write notes on what you see for flags and mirage, take a guess on what it might do, shoot and see what actually happened. You must be able to see every shot otherwise, you will be guessing and that is ubber frustrating.
Now that you have some data, adjust your POI to account for the anticipated change. If the correction is correct, the shot will land in the center as desired.
It is very common to have to add or subtract vertical with windage depending on bullet, rifle specs and distance.
you can read more in Bryan Litz's books (PM or email if interested).
Wind has an affect on the flight of every bullet. How much? Well, that's what separates podium finishers and everyone else.
Jerry
First tune your rifle load so you know how the groups form in calm air. Then track how the groups change when the wind vary.
Always aim in the same place, at the same distance, using the same target. The goal is to understand cause and effect.
Write notes on what you see for flags and mirage, take a guess on what it might do, shoot and see what actually happened. You must be able to see every shot otherwise, you will be guessing and that is ubber frustrating.
Now that you have some data, adjust your POI to account for the anticipated change. If the correction is correct, the shot will land in the center as desired.
It is very common to have to add or subtract vertical with windage depending on bullet, rifle specs and distance.
you can read more in Bryan Litz's books (PM or email if interested).
Wind has an affect on the flight of every bullet. How much? Well, that's what separates podium finishers and everyone else.
Jerry
Sounds like I just have to shoot more. In the last year I've just started to get somewhat comfortable shooting at distance in the wind, I just need to get the smaller variations figured....awful long learning curve when you have a busy day job i got to say. I'll email about the Litz book...been wanting to get a look at it for a few years now but haven't run into a copy yet.
To the OP, sorry for the hijack, nice rig and some pretty decent shooting there.
To the OP, sorry for the hijack, nice rig and some pretty decent shooting there.
358Rooster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central Saskatchewan
No hijack, as far as I'm concerned, shooter. Very appropriately relevent to the thread, netting exactly a response I want to read about and apply to my shooting. In fact, thank you for the contribution!
Rooster
Rooster
Don't worry about wind right now at less than 300y.
Your looking for the smallest vertical for the most consistent velocity. Wind right now will move u 2-3 inches left or right and make a group look bad but it's ok. We can work on wind when u get that tack driver dialed in.
If your shooting groups you can even move back closer if it makes things easer.
Your looking for the smallest vertical for the most consistent velocity. Wind right now will move u 2-3 inches left or right and make a group look bad but it's ok. We can work on wind when u get that tack driver dialed in.
If your shooting groups you can even move back closer if it makes things easer.
What follows is just my opinion for what it's worth. I agree with the above post, I have tried several ways of tuning a new barrel and in the end I feel I must shoot at 100m with excellent conditions to find a load that works. When I have a load that I think is good, I will shoot 10 rnds, not 3 not 5 but 10 at 100m and if I don't have one ragged hole,toony size, I'm not happy. I will then move out to longer ranges to confirm results. I have found that if it will not group at 100 it will not group further out, it is a game of angle's, regardless of all the BS I have read, I have yet to find that the bullets deviate from their original path??? Ya I know some bullets will take a while to stabilize! BS. I find it very difficult to discount mirage and wind even at 100m let alone further out. A 7mm 180gr Berger Hybrid will move enough at 100m, from mirage or the slightest wind to make me question its POI. I have tried ladder testing and found that to be very frustrating, maybe with a camera to record each shot?? but I don't have time for that and barrel life is too sacraficial. I use 5 shot groups to establish a powder load to work with and then will play with seating depth to attempt a tighter group. And an interesting thing I have found is that my tightest groups and flatest are not always the best on the cronograph!!!!!!! Then are usually acceptable but not always the best for ES and SD. That being my experience I question the accuracy of crony's and the validity of SD & ES. I know! hard to question the theory but I like to think the proof is on the target. In the end if you are not confident that the gun is holding elevation, it is very hard to make decisions about conditions, especially with head or rear winds. FWIW
Marc
I agree with Jerry completely about using fire formed brass. That's a minimum requirement for running load development with precise accuracy expectations.
There is a little trick I use to get about 1/8 moa out of it, that I should not even share with you guys. I could get some showlin priest assassinate me for mentioning it.
A real cheap alternative to sleeving a bolt is plain old every day scotch tape. Most factory bolts have at least .004" of slop between the bolt and the action. You can feel it if you remove the firing pin mechanism and with the bolt in the receiver rattle the bolt and you will feel it is not exactly tight. With most rifles you can wrap once around just forward of the bolt handle with a single layer of scotch tape which is about .002" thick. It should be just enough to take out most of that play.
If you have a really sloppy fit, you might go with up to 2 wraps, but you would really have a POS if that is needed. At that point you might consider aluminum dryer duct tape.
It wont last very long, but it can tighten up your groups for a while. When the tape looks worn, just replace it. One roll of tape will last a lifetime.
There is a little trick I use to get about 1/8 moa out of it, that I should not even share with you guys. I could get some showlin priest assassinate me for mentioning it.
A real cheap alternative to sleeving a bolt is plain old every day scotch tape. Most factory bolts have at least .004" of slop between the bolt and the action. You can feel it if you remove the firing pin mechanism and with the bolt in the receiver rattle the bolt and you will feel it is not exactly tight. With most rifles you can wrap once around just forward of the bolt handle with a single layer of scotch tape which is about .002" thick. It should be just enough to take out most of that play.
If you have a really sloppy fit, you might go with up to 2 wraps, but you would really have a POS if that is needed. At that point you might consider aluminum dryer duct tape.
It wont last very long, but it can tighten up your groups for a while. When the tape looks worn, just replace it. One roll of tape will last a lifetime.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
At this point, you are load testing. Here I want to use every single aid I can to get rid of driver error. I am trying to figure out what the rifle wants and the mechanical limits of the rifle.... NOT how good or bad I am shooting.
Once I have a load sorted out, then I will practise under the conditions the rifles will be used to confirm both my set up and my ability to deliver. Slight tweaks are inevitable but you are comparing to a known baseline.
Pedestal rest - 1/2 min. Harris - 1.5min... Maybe I need to work on using the Harris. The rifle and load are working.
If you cannot ensure that each and every shot will be fired with consistency during testing, then the holes in that target will always be suspect. Big reason shooters report inconsistent results from their "precision" rifle.
Barrels simply don't last long enough to guess. KNOW that each shot will be shot well. Makes notes when it doesn't. Track every hole in that target vs you vs condition - maybe an awesome load shot poorly because that extra cup of coffee just kicked in.
I have had some targets that were not pretty bughole affairs but been happy cause each hole could be explained due to either load tuning, me or condition. Good or bad, as long as you explain why, you are on the right track to success.
Jerry
Jerry
358Rooster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central Saskatchewan
So, last night I decided to load the rest of my Lapua brass with the Match Kings for practice and forming. As luck would have it, conditions turned out to be very favourable this morning and I had a small window before having to be back in town to be a parent again before noon. Hit panic mode when I saw the wind, loaded up my gear, and made the 45 minute drive to the farm. Hacked together a target board and set it out at 500 yards. Once on my steel plate already placed at that range, I started shooting groups. These are all virgin brass, 168 Match Kings jammed .010, loaded at #9 charge weight from the first test I posted. Wind was light from 4:00 and mirage was present but not debilitating (rising, left). In fact, I think I figured my scope out a bit better as well. It wasn't until I was almost through the second group that mirage started to make things a bit wonky.
I chose to use the bipod, as I was crunched for time and I was out for practice and forming anyway. Below is the result. The shot with the 'X' through it was loaded at what would have been charge #12. I abondoned this immediately - stiff bolt lift.
First group is 7 shots. Second group was dialed and shot two MOA directly above, and the third group was dialed and shot one MOA down and two MOA right - both 10 round groups. All groups shot to same POA. Tough to tell load from shooter here but the first group shows real potential, at least from a vertical standpoint.
I think we're making some progress! Just gotta get the driver tuned up some more too. This has all been awesome guys - I appreciate it!
Rooster
I chose to use the bipod, as I was crunched for time and I was out for practice and forming anyway. Below is the result. The shot with the 'X' through it was loaded at what would have been charge #12. I abondoned this immediately - stiff bolt lift.
First group is 7 shots. Second group was dialed and shot two MOA directly above, and the third group was dialed and shot one MOA down and two MOA right - both 10 round groups. All groups shot to same POA. Tough to tell load from shooter here but the first group shows real potential, at least from a vertical standpoint.
I think we're making some progress! Just gotta get the driver tuned up some more too. This has all been awesome guys - I appreciate it!
Rooster
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358Rooster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central Saskatchewan
I should also mention that I removed the cheek piece from my rifle. I always did have trouble with lateral alignment when it was on but I liked the vertical alignment it provided. I took it off for this morning and while I struggled a bit with keeping vertical, it was overall much easier to get the picture I needed. I think it'll stay off.
R
R
That's what got me to ditch the Blackhawk cheek piece too. It was just too wide for me, causing me to have to rotate my head and look through the scope crooked. I'm more comfortable without it and the eyebox on my NF is huge so alignment isn't much to deal with. Try a tac pro from Jerry, theyre a major improvement and they don't push your face away from the comb. Plus theyre more adjustable and solid.
358Rooster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central Saskatchewan
Last night in perfect conditions - fireformed the last 7 pieces of my Lapua brass at 500.
Conditions this morning.
Fireforming more Winchester brass at 500.
Now that I have all my Lapua brass formed, I'll be hacking away at load testing again in ernest.
Conditions this morning.
Fireforming more Winchester brass at 500.
Now that I have all my Lapua brass formed, I'll be hacking away at load testing again in ernest.
Speaking of ladder tests..... I did one today.
13-14-15 are clearly the most promising, but had slight extractor impressions on 14 and 15. Primers and bolt lift still good, and it was a warm 25C, so I think I have my maximum, 43.9gr of IMR 4895 for this load.
I'll do mini-ladder tests in those 3 ranges, dropping to .2gr increments. Weather is still good, so I'll load tonight and hit the range again tomorrow.
13-14-15 are clearly the most promising, but had slight extractor impressions on 14 and 15. Primers and bolt lift still good, and it was a warm 25C, so I think I have my maximum, 43.9gr of IMR 4895 for this load.
I'll do mini-ladder tests in those 3 ranges, dropping to .2gr increments. Weather is still good, so I'll load tonight and hit the range again tomorrow.
358Rooster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central Saskatchewan
What distance was that, Alpheus? Man, that's a tough one to interpret. I had single-round ladder loads left over from the first go - I pounded these out this morning at 500. The first 6 (of 11 total) printed on the 22" tall paper with the 7th just barely cutting the top edge, and the rest all sailed clear over the top. Talk about a glaring contrast to shorter range testing! I like it except when there are conditions like I had this morning (couldn't see hits because of mirage).
Rooster
Rooster
358Rooster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central Saskatchewan
I don't know how qualified I am to really say but if it were me, I'd shoot that same go-round again - maybe twice. Not throwing accusations or anything but I've learned over the last little while that if shooter error isn't under control and totally predictable, printed results may not tell you exactly what the load is doing. I struggle with this but am working on it.
Rooster
Rooster
So I did the mini-ladder test. Very frustrating, I had FOUR bad primers and a hangfire. WTF, over? Primers are CCI BR2, and all my reloads have so far come from the same box of 1000 and this is the first time I've had issues.
Below is a photo. Each of the circled groups were the windows from my previous test, and each had one bad primer/should have been 4 shots. Interpreting this one with missing charges is useless, will have to redo.
I put my range time to good use, I did another ladder with IMR 4064. Same primers as above. Much better results:
Shots 1-4 show great promise. I'm thinking 9-10-11 and 14-15. No pressure signs in 14 and 15, so I'll push a little further when I do the mini-ladder for this load.
The weather was great, mirage was very clear but not murky. I could really see the wind affecting shots 1-4 as I shot them, great learning experience.
This photo also shows the promise of shots 1-4. Four fouler/sighter shots, with a mere 40gr of 4064 (same charge as shot #1)
Below is a photo. Each of the circled groups were the windows from my previous test, and each had one bad primer/should have been 4 shots. Interpreting this one with missing charges is useless, will have to redo.
I put my range time to good use, I did another ladder with IMR 4064. Same primers as above. Much better results:
Shots 1-4 show great promise. I'm thinking 9-10-11 and 14-15. No pressure signs in 14 and 15, so I'll push a little further when I do the mini-ladder for this load.
The weather was great, mirage was very clear but not murky. I could really see the wind affecting shots 1-4 as I shot them, great learning experience.
This photo also shows the promise of shots 1-4. Four fouler/sighter shots, with a mere 40gr of 4064 (same charge as shot #1)
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Got out to do a bit more load testing a while ago and would like some insight from guys who know how to read this well.
Straight .284 loaded with Berger VLD's in the top picture, Sierra MK's in the bottom picture, both 168's, both burning H4831SC at a range of 52.0 to 56.5 grains in 1/2 grain increments. All shot at 264 yards, bipod, sh*tty rear bag. Ugly day with 20 km winds from 1:00 - 2:00, +2 degrees, and a whole raft of other excuses.
I think shots 6 through 9 show promise even though #8 is way out. I thought it felt good at the time but I guess I was dead wrong.
Again, with the SMK's, one odd dropped shot (#5....and #8 shouldn't be there either IMO). I don't really remember the call on this one though - but there it is.
Forecast for Wednesday shows 5 km winds, so I'll head out to test this range of charges again to see how the two results compare. Thanks for any input you guys will share.
Rooster
I'm new to reloading myself and found it to be far easier to do my test this way:
Each load has 3 rounds, and each 3 were shot on a new target (identical target printed from the net), usual stuff with same point of aim, utilizing the acronym "HABIT" when sending the shots, and it was easier for me to read. I found my recipe for H4895, and for Win748 I am redoing 2 of the loads (all done in .5gr increments) just to make sure because I wasn't overly satisfied with groups 2 and 3 respectively.
