I know right. Maybe I'll just keep buying new brass,no die needed...
All I know for sure is ,I got about $6000 gone into this little pipe dream. And it better make very tiny groups,or I'm gonna toss it in the Bay! Lol.
Lapua brass. Prep???
- Thread starter Brianma65
- Start date
I know right. Maybe I'll just keep buying new brass,no die needed...
All I know for sure is ,I got about $6000 gone into this little pipe dream. And it better make very tiny groups,or I'm gonna toss it in the Bay! Lol.
- Location
- Jameson, SK
nah, don't do that..... oh wait, yes, DO THAT....and I'll take all that lapua brass off ya!!!
I bet you'll love that 6.5.
-J.
The Aussies changed their ammo from Berdan to Boxer. The target rifle handloaders then complained that accuracy was poor and accused ADi of supplying poor quality primers. The ADI lab did some research and published an excellent report.
Bottom line was that ES and SD were inversely proportional to the size of the flash hole. Berdan had smaller holes and therefore produced better results.
NEVER enlarge a flash hole.
Deburring, on the other hand, is the single biggest improvement one can make to brass, based on lab tests I ran, using 20 round tests in a pressure gun.
358Rooster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central Saskatchewan
Holy smokes, G! How many set ups do you need? You should be able to spend about a fifth of that and be set. From Sinclair: http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/case-preparation/neck-turning/neck-turning-tools/nt-1000-neck-turning-kit-prod38664.aspx
Of course it's USD but still way better than $500. Mind you, the way they ship, it may end up costing that much anyway
Rooster
- Location
- Jameson, SK
Holy smokes, G! How many set ups do you need? You should be able to spend about a fifth of that and be set. From Sinclair: http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...tools/nt-1000-neck-turning-kit-prod38664.aspx
Of course it's USD but still way better than $500. Mind you, the way they ship, it may end up costing that much anyway
Rooster
oh no no, I only have one!!! I have the 21st. I do have them for 6.5x47, .308, .300WSM, and .338LM though..... .308 was an afterthought when I realized I needed it for F-TR.
I need a 30 hour day. This "working" business is cutting into my fun time....
GGG
In the very least use a expander die to straighten and uniform the case necks on new brass. I would never just load new brass without sizing the neck, trimming to length and then deburing the case mouth.
Expander Mandrels and Neck Tension
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/expander-mandrels-and-neck-tension/
Complete Precision Case Prep
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/complete-precision-case-prep/
I full length resize all new cases and all fired cases using Forster full length dies, this makes the most concentric cases. Meaning low neck and bullet runout.
Bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers and neck turned brass. Bushing dies also come with a expander for those who do not turn their necks.
Dies with expanders are not the end of the world especially with off the shelf factory rifles with SAAMI chambers.
I checked my Forster full length .223 die with pin gauges and this die only reduced the neck diameter .002 to .003 more than a bushing die would.
Bottom line I have Forster full length dies and Forster bushing bump dies and the full length die produces cases with the least amount of neck runout.
Note, when you reduce the neck diameter .004 or more with a bushing die you can induce neck runout. And at the Whidden custom die website they tell you their full length non-bushing dies produce the most concentric cases.
- Location
- Jameson, SK
I don't think it does, and if it does, I'm certain it won't be the PPC. Maybe X-reload can get you one quickly??
Given that you said you're gonna "throw the whole works in the bay" I'm guessing you're not from around my parts (NL??)..... I run sh!t through the feed mixer when I've had enough with it!!!
-J.
hometownhero
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Toon Town, Sk
I recently got 2 boxes of lapua. That cool-aid left a bitter taste in my mouth.
I will start with the 7mm-08 brass.
Opened box, they did look good that is for sure. Weighed 10 of them and they were all very close to the same weight. So +2 on appearance so far. I ran them through the expander on my die (I do with all brass and pretty much everywhere I read suggested to to get the neck tension down some). After that primed them with cci large rifle and I did notice that some pockets were very tight and some so-so for tight.
Weight out my powder and load bullets are seating very hard still but I press on because this is supposedly normal and after all the internet says it is the best brass ever made. After that was done off to the range.
Did my usually load work up until pressure signs so pack up and head home to pull some bullets.
Back at the load bench the fired stuff sized great (after reloading these rounds the bullets seated normally without excessive force). Now put in my collet die and try to pull the first bullet. Holy crap it feels like it is welded to the case. After almost breaking my bench top that is 1.5" thick the bullet finally broke free. Thank goodness there was only a few of these to do.
So now because the ones that were fired have considerably less neck tension I have to fire the rest to get them the same. So go to the range and do that. Go home size, clean, dry, prime(again some pockets are easier then others same as straight from the box).
Now apron loading a new batch to test out some bullets seat with little to no effort and some are snug fit like they should be. Great...
So anyway fire those off and now time to trim. After trimmer is done cutting it is pretty much impossible to get the mandrel out of the case. Well isn't that perfect. Try the next one same thing for every piece of brass. Never had such an issue with any other brass I have used. (winchester, remington, hornady, even federal).
So after all that it is fired 3 times and back in the box.
Now I had also bought some 223 to neck up to use in my 6x45. Needless to say I wasn't to thrilled about it now. But pressed on anyway. Primed them all after running through the sizing die.
Loaded 2 to try Bullets seated very easily. First thought Great... Went to the range and fired those after shooting for the day. At home sized them and made a dummy to see if the necks were better. Wait for it... Nope same as before. So that stuff is also sitting in the box.
So in conclusion spent $240for paper weights. I could have spent $260 and gotten 400 308 to size to 7mm-08 and 1000 223 to use in 6x45.
I will start with the 7mm-08 brass.
Opened box, they did look good that is for sure. Weighed 10 of them and they were all very close to the same weight. So +2 on appearance so far. I ran them through the expander on my die (I do with all brass and pretty much everywhere I read suggested to to get the neck tension down some). After that primed them with cci large rifle and I did notice that some pockets were very tight and some so-so for tight.
Weight out my powder and load bullets are seating very hard still but I press on because this is supposedly normal and after all the internet says it is the best brass ever made. After that was done off to the range.
Did my usually load work up until pressure signs so pack up and head home to pull some bullets.
Back at the load bench the fired stuff sized great (after reloading these rounds the bullets seated normally without excessive force). Now put in my collet die and try to pull the first bullet. Holy crap it feels like it is welded to the case. After almost breaking my bench top that is 1.5" thick the bullet finally broke free. Thank goodness there was only a few of these to do.
So now because the ones that were fired have considerably less neck tension I have to fire the rest to get them the same. So go to the range and do that. Go home size, clean, dry, prime(again some pockets are easier then others same as straight from the box).
Now apron loading a new batch to test out some bullets seat with little to no effort and some are snug fit like they should be. Great...
So anyway fire those off and now time to trim. After trimmer is done cutting it is pretty much impossible to get the mandrel out of the case. Well isn't that perfect. Try the next one same thing for every piece of brass. Never had such an issue with any other brass I have used. (winchester, remington, hornady, even federal).
So after all that it is fired 3 times and back in the box.
Now I had also bought some 223 to neck up to use in my 6x45. Needless to say I wasn't to thrilled about it now. But pressed on anyway. Primed them all after running through the sizing die.
Loaded 2 to try Bullets seated very easily. First thought Great... Went to the range and fired those after shooting for the day. At home sized them and made a dummy to see if the necks were better. Wait for it... Nope same as before. So that stuff is also sitting in the box.
So in conclusion spent $240for paper weights. I could have spent $260 and gotten 400 308 to size to 7mm-08 and 1000 223 to use in 6x45.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
This is the prep I use for all my rifles and new brass..
Fireform using cornmeal and light pistol powder charge.. out of the box with no further prep until the first bang. This opens the typically undersized necks and "shocks" the case so full pressure firing will not strain the web area... extends case life and makes the first powder charge firing more productive.
Many brands of brass are sized to min.. min... min spec out of the box. Throw that into a "fat" chamber and fire under high pressure, may damage the web enough to render the case useless in a couple more pops.
now the case has a semblance of the chamber and I will begin the prep - check case runout. If wonky, get the rifle fixed. Deburr, size the neck, outside neck turn (even if to skim the neck to clean off the high spots - ensure proper clearance, not all chambers are big). If using bushings, you can now control the neck tension vs bushing size by making the neck thickness fit. now the case is ready for a powder charge and bullet.
Work up and see where things are happy happy. Body size, neck size, outside neck turn, trim if needed, deburr. The forster bushing/bump die will combine the first two sizing jobs. They can be set independently which is really a nice feature.
After 2 to 3 firings, anneal the necks PROPERLY. Body size, neck size, outside neck turn, trim as needed, deburr... repeat until you toss the cases. Brass flows with every firing. Some cartridge shapes, brass alloy and pressures will cause the brass to flow more then others. It will vary from case to case in your batch. outside neck turning to remove the high spots on every firing ensures neck tension is as consistent as you can control and you remove the excess brass that will form the dreaded donut.
Brass may have started out even but I bet with some shooting, that will change. If you have to trim, you have to turn. Where do you think the brass came from?
Buy bushings with the expectations to adjust neck tension per thou but the brass is allowed to flow into whatever the heck it wants to. Skip annealing and wonder why case necks split or seating pressures change.
K&M hand turners will be around $125 for the first cal... $16 more for each other pilot.. lee auto prime shell holder as needed.
If doing alot of cases, I have mechanised my Forster case trimmer to get this chore done fast and consistently. For the amount of brass I need to prep, no way I am going to do this hand.
ideally, with this type of set up, I will target 1 to 2 thou neck tension. Maintaining the neck thickness, ductility is critical to my success at distance.
It takes time, but like all the other steps in making the best ammo possible, it is the investment that pays off when your rifle drives bullets into itty bitty groups way the heck out there.
YMMV
Jerry
Fireform using cornmeal and light pistol powder charge.. out of the box with no further prep until the first bang. This opens the typically undersized necks and "shocks" the case so full pressure firing will not strain the web area... extends case life and makes the first powder charge firing more productive.
Many brands of brass are sized to min.. min... min spec out of the box. Throw that into a "fat" chamber and fire under high pressure, may damage the web enough to render the case useless in a couple more pops.
now the case has a semblance of the chamber and I will begin the prep - check case runout. If wonky, get the rifle fixed. Deburr, size the neck, outside neck turn (even if to skim the neck to clean off the high spots - ensure proper clearance, not all chambers are big). If using bushings, you can now control the neck tension vs bushing size by making the neck thickness fit. now the case is ready for a powder charge and bullet.
Work up and see where things are happy happy. Body size, neck size, outside neck turn, trim if needed, deburr. The forster bushing/bump die will combine the first two sizing jobs. They can be set independently which is really a nice feature.
After 2 to 3 firings, anneal the necks PROPERLY. Body size, neck size, outside neck turn, trim as needed, deburr... repeat until you toss the cases. Brass flows with every firing. Some cartridge shapes, brass alloy and pressures will cause the brass to flow more then others. It will vary from case to case in your batch. outside neck turning to remove the high spots on every firing ensures neck tension is as consistent as you can control and you remove the excess brass that will form the dreaded donut.
Brass may have started out even but I bet with some shooting, that will change. If you have to trim, you have to turn. Where do you think the brass came from?
Buy bushings with the expectations to adjust neck tension per thou but the brass is allowed to flow into whatever the heck it wants to. Skip annealing and wonder why case necks split or seating pressures change.
K&M hand turners will be around $125 for the first cal... $16 more for each other pilot.. lee auto prime shell holder as needed.
If doing alot of cases, I have mechanised my Forster case trimmer to get this chore done fast and consistently. For the amount of brass I need to prep, no way I am going to do this hand.
ideally, with this type of set up, I will target 1 to 2 thou neck tension. Maintaining the neck thickness, ductility is critical to my success at distance.
It takes time, but like all the other steps in making the best ammo possible, it is the investment that pays off when your rifle drives bullets into itty bitty groups way the heck out there.
YMMV
Jerry
- Location
- Jameson, SK
If your turning mandrel won't come out after turning, then your expander die ain't right, or non-existent.
GGG
GGG
Just watched a vid on fire forming ,using cream of wheat,pistol powder and toilet paper.
I have tite group and CFE pistol,on hand. Would either of those work?
Anything I should be aware of? So I don't blow anything up or off
I have tite group and CFE pistol,on hand. Would either of those work?
Anything I should be aware of? So I don't blow anything up or off
If you went for the Bushing Bump Neck Sizing Die that is a good choice. That is what I use on my 6BR. However, I did get the optional expander ball with it. It is my preference to size the neck down to less than a thou undersized with the bushing, and then size it back up that fraction of a thou with the expander ball on the way out.
I've loaded Lapua brass 5 times while pushing the shoulder back about 0.001" each time. There is no hint yet that I need a full length sizing die. And that is good, because I don't have one!
If you are resourceful you can pull the guts out of the bushing die and use the die body along with a 6" vernier gauge to measure the length of your brass to the shoulder. That is how I did it. However, it is much more handy to use the Hornady Headspace Gauge Comparitor to measure the bump. It is much faster and very accurate.
If you have the bushing bump die without the expander ball, you can run your brass through it, but I suspect it won't do anything.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Just watched a vid on fire forming ,using cream of wheat,pistol powder and toilet paper.
I have tite group and CFE pistol,on hand. Would either of those work?
Anything I should be aware of? So I don't blow anything up or off
I use titegroup... you will not need much. Pressures will build up fast so work up in small increments. any LR primer.
Fill with cornmeal to base of the case neck. Piece of TP to keep it all from falling out. don't jam hard
DO NOT LET WATER ANYWHERE NEAR THIS STUFF... Grits is a very bad thing.
Jerry
OK, getting lots of help. Thanks.
I'm thinking of getting the 21 century neck turner lathe.
Now I'm looking for a annealer.
I seen one on here,awhile back, no propane, just stick the case in and it's done. Can't remember the brand though. Anyone??? Remember or know what it is.
I'm thinking of getting the 21 century neck turner lathe.
Now I'm looking for a annealer.
I seen one on here,awhile back, no propane, just stick the case in and it's done. Can't remember the brand though. Anyone??? Remember or know what it is.
Just watched a vid on fire forming ,using cream of wheat,pistol powder and toilet paper.
I have tite group and CFE pistol,on hand. Would either of those work?
Anything I should be aware of? So I don't blow anything up or off
With my 6BR and Lapua brass, I didn't find there was any significant difference in the size of groups I got with first fire virgin brass or subsequent firings. With the right load it will shoot down into the .2" range at 100 with new or fired brass.
