Lapua brass. Prep???

[bigedp51]

Now, question for those that know:

Neck turning can be for two reasons, correct?? 1. To get your round to fit in a tightly necked chambering, but also 2. to maximize the consistently of the neck tension of the bullet release??

So even with a "loose"/"no turn" chambering, you'd still benefit from the more consistent neck tension, no??

GGG

Yes, neck turning theoretically gives you more uniform neck tension. BUT there are many other things that contribute to accuracy.

Some of the best groups I have ever fired were by accident when fire forming new cases with the bullet jammed into the rifling. And that was before any neck turning!

1. I would practice neck turning on some range pick up brass until you get good at it.
2. I sort my brass with a Sinclair neck thickness gauge so I do have to neck turn.
3. In a perfect world the angle of the neck turning cutter should match your shoulder angle better.
4. And when you get old and the eyes start to go and you drink too much coffee even laser guided bullets wont help.

Neck-Turning Tool Cutting Tips
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/neck-turning-tool-cutting-tips/

 

[Mystic Precision]

Now, question for those that know:

Neck turning can be for two reasons, correct?? 1. To get your round to fit in a tightly necked chambering, but also 2. to maximize the consistently of the neck tension of the bullet release??

So even with a "loose"/"no turn" chambering, you'd still benefit from the more consistent neck tension, no??

GGG

Yep, that is the main reason.. plus it ensures that the neck ID is a circle instead of elliptical if using Bushing neck dies... and it stops donuts from forming... and all the other points I have mentioned over the many posts.

It is not the end all but 1 important part of a process to make the most accurate ammo you can. And most of my factory rifles seem to shoot near 1/2 moa with this careful load prep... seems some modern factory rifle are pretty darn accurate if treated properly

For those that want to reach a higher level of performance and taking ALL the necessary steps, it can help. But don't bother with a battle rifle and hope you can take a 3 MOA rifle to a sub MOA rig by simple turning the case necks.

Said, outside neck turning can help... it isn't a cure.

Jerry

 

[Ron AKA]

I "spent" on a miyotoyu caliber. About 150$ for .0005. Heard some bad things about the ctire ones I use for less precise aspects of my life.

My 6" vernier and 1" micrometer were both under $20 each. I think one was from CTC and the other Princess Auto, but really both from China Inc.. As long as you zero them before each use, I can read the vernier to 0.0005", and the micrometer to 0.0001". Mitutoyo makes good measurement tools though, probably better than Starrett from the UK. They used to be relatively inexpensive, but now, not so much. Kind of like Toyota was cheap at one time...

 

[Ron AKA]

Now, question for those that know:

Neck turning can be for two reasons, correct?? 1. To get your round to fit in a tightly necked chambering, but also 2. to maximize the consistently of the neck tension of the bullet release??

So even with a "loose"/"no turn" chambering, you'd still benefit from the more consistent neck tension, no??

Yes, when you turn the brass correctly you will eliminate or at least reduce brass thickness variation. However you will increase the brass OD to chamber ID clearance, unless your chamber was cut with neck turning considered. So it is a double edged sword for those that do not have custom tight neck chambers.

 

[Ron AKA]

I still need a good optic yet

Don't overlook the Sightron scopes. You can spend a lot more and not get a lot more...

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

My 6" vernier and 1" micrometer were both under $20 each. I think one was from CTC and the other Princess Auto, but really both from China Inc.. As long as you zero them before each use, I can read the vernier to 0.0005", and the micrometer to 0.0001". Mitutoyo makes good measurement tools though, probably better than Starrett from the UK. They used to be relatively inexpensive, but now, not so much. Kind of like Toyota was cheap at one time...

I'm no machinist, but from my reading Mitotoyu is right up there with Starrett.

I read several posts from machinists stating that the Princess Auto and ctire calipers are often off by quite a bit. I have several pairs of them, but when I'm discarding loads or pulling bullets based on +\- 0.002 I want better.

.....and Starrett is an American company.

Mitotoyu is not like Toyota, they're like Lexus, or like Nissan's GT-R team.

GGG

 

[Ron AKA]

I'm no machinist, but from my reading Mitotoyu is right up there with Starrett.

.....and Starrett is an American company.

You are correct. I would have sworn the Starrett stuff we had in the machine shop in the 70's was from the UK. I believe they expanded the company to the UK in the 50's, so perhaps what we had came from there... And I agree that Mitutoyo surpassed Starrett in quality somewhere along the line.

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

You are correct. I would have sworn the Starrett stuff we had in the machine shop in the 70's was from the UK. I believe they expanded the company to the UK in the 50's, so perhaps what we had came from there... And I agree that Mitutoyo surpassed Starrett in quality somewhere along the line.

They did expand.....to Brazil and parts of Europe too.....so says Wikipedia.

 

[RonR]

Deburring, on the other hand, is the single biggest improvement one can make to brass, based on lab tests I ran, using 20 round tests in a pressure gun.

That's solid experience talking. Thanks for that.

Jerry has K&M, .... You'll need a neck expanded die then too. GGG

K&M hand turners will be around $125 for the first cal... $16 more for each other pilot.. lee auto prime shell holder as needed. Jerry

What I use here, but the volumes are small.

It was indicated once that a lee collet die could do the same sizing operation prior to neck turning. My experience and results with tuning the collet die was inconsistent at the time so I did indeed get the KM expander option to keep it KISS. If you want to spin a lot for lots of calibers GGG's suggestion for century stuff is a very good one. (I am a little jealous )

I recently got 2 boxes of lapua. I will start with the 7mm-08 brass...After that primed them with cci large rifle and I did notice that some pockets were very tight and some so-so for tight. So after all that it is fired 3 times and back in the box.

Exactly my experience HTH. We should talk though...wouldn't want a blue box like to collect dust.

1. Do you have a neck thickness gauge?
2. Do you have a runout gauge?
3. What tools do you have to make precision ammunition.
4. I would practice neck turning on some range brass first, before messing up costly Lapua brass.

I belong to the rat t u r d in the violin case fraternity

KISS = Keep it simple stupid Just do what Mystic Precision tells you

Myself personally at the beginning, I just measured bullet dia and then a cartridge with a bullet seated and derived neck thickness with math. I now have dial indicators and haven't advanced enough to use a runout type system. As Ed has suggested some way of measurement is required and good tip to practice on something other than what you purchased is an experienced suggestion. Nothing against that fraternity Ed and creating concentric ammunition as you've explained.

You may not see much accuracy improvement after fireforming new brass but the idea for some of us is that it will save the web from stretching too much on that first firing, providing you take measures to prevent forward movement of the cartridge when hit by the firing pin...That Lapua brass is on its 10th cycle with no concerning signs of web thinning. I like to think my prep had something to do with that. Rooster

Never thought of it like that.

If your turning mandrel won't come out after turning, then your expander die ain't right, or non-existent. GGG

It may be no lube on the mandrel either, at least from my experience. If it's hot grease it!

Now, question for those that know:

Neck turning can be for two reasons, correct?? 1. To get your round to fit in a tightly necked chambering, but also 2. to maximize the consistently of the neck tension of the bullet release??

So even with a "loose"/"no turn" chambering, you'd still benefit from the more consistent neck tension, no??

GGG

I'll add to #2, for me here neck turning eliminated so many variables regarding bullet seating and seating force inconsistencies. The process is repeatable and reproducible. Once the neck tensions been set, it's the same every time.

FWIW,

Regards
Ronr

 

[Mystic Precision]

Yes, when you turn the brass correctly you will eliminate or at least reduce brass thickness variation. However you will increase the brass OD to chamber ID clearance, unless your chamber was cut with neck turning considered. So it is a double edged sword for those that do not have custom tight neck chambers.

The only issue this might cause is neck splits... That's it and the solution is easy... proper annealing.

By the time the ID of a case is 1 thou LARGER then the bullet diameter, that bullet is long gone down the bore.

I think alot of shooter forget this important point.

Jerry

 

[Ron AKA]

By the time the ID of a case is 1 thou LARGER then the bullet diameter, that bullet is long gone down the bore.

I think the potential problem starts before the trigger is pulled. My thoughts are that the position of the bullet relative to the bore centerline before the primer fires is critical, along with that first 1/4" or so of movement through the throat. If the bullet gets skewed off center at the start I think it stays that way all the way to the muzzle, and when it exits the muzzle with the bullet skewed things get much worse. I think a lot of shooters think the bullet is solid object, when in fact it is quite soft, and gets deformed by the 62,000 psi pressure behind it. At least that is my theory why my 6BR will shoot Berger 68's down to the .1's, and then sprays Berger 62's out to 3". I think that Berger 62 is too short for the long throat in my gun, and it gets skewed before it gets to the lands. Or at least I have not found any other way to explain how a group could open up that much, with only a change in bullet weight of 6 grains.

That is why I put a lot of effort into getting the bullet centerline concentric with the bore. I worry less about cartridge runout in a measuring apparatus, than I do about concentricity and alignment to the bore in the gun. And that is the basic reason behind jamming my bullets at the front, and leaving the case neck unsized at the rear. Kind of forces the bullet to line up to the bore. The problem with those 62's is that I can't jam them and keep them in the case neck at the pressure ring.

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

RonR, my flatland brother, has asked many good questions and humbly, yet obsessively delved into precision.....i now will seek his advice!!!

I really do like my 21st setup, but I've heard really good things about k&m too. It was a coin flip.

As for there being a lube issue with the turning mandrel if you're brass is stuck on it, I stepped up to TiNi mandrels on all and have never had an issue....pay 25% more for TiNi, or lube, and relube, and lube again. There's no bloody way that your brass should be stuck on your turning mandrel if you're doing it right.....

RonR, let's go shooting when it warms up.

GGG

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

I think the potential problem starts before the trigger is pulled. My thoughts are that the position of the bullet relative to the bore centerline before the primer fires is critical, along with that first 1/4" or so of movement through the throat. If the bullet gets skewed off center at the start I think it stays that way all the way to the muzzle, and when it exits the muzzle with the bullet skewed things get much worse. I think a lot of shooters think the bullet is solid object, when in fact it is quite soft, and gets deformed by the 62,000 psi pressure behind it. At least that is my theory why my 6BR will shoot Berger 68's down to the .1's, and then sprays Berger 62's out to 3". I think that Berger 62 is too short for the long throat in my gun, and it gets skewed before it gets to the lands. Or at least I have not found any other way to explain how a group could open up that much, with only a change in bullet weight of 6 grains.

That is why I put a lot of effort into getting the bullet centerline concentric with the bore. I worry less about cartridge runout in a measuring apparatus, than I do about concentricity and alignment to the bore in the gun. And that is the basic reason behind jamming my bullets at the front, and leaving the case neck unsized at the rear. Kind of forces the bullet to line up to the bore. The problem with those 62's is that I can't jam them and keep them in the case neck at the pressure ring.

You're a thinker AKA, and persistent, despite multiple people suggesting that you're Sunray with a moustache&glasses mask on.

You're jamming into lands idea makes sense, yet doesn't always appear to work. It is, however, the most reproducible method I've heard to date. Who gives a F what you're concentricity gauge says - what does your concentricity look like 5 days after you've made the rounds, and driven 18 miles on a gravel road on the way to the range, and dropped your ammo case, and filled your driver seat with farts??? Probably not so good. I don't carry my reloads in a hermetically sealed padded case, does anyone??

(This is CGN. I bet someone will state that they do....)

....so, your thoughts are theoretical, but not wrong. Somewhere here, on the interweb, are the details of an experiment done about 40 years ago where the individual balance and stability of bullets was tested via a spinning dremel type thing, using amperage draw on the spinning motor as the outcome measurement. Bullets that were off balance drew more amps, and were used for varmints. Bullets that drew few amps were used in testing and were insanely accurate.

So, question, not being a ####, but of your "jam them all" theory works, why not leave them all proud by .020 and use the lands as your seating die?? If you have the same powder charge in the same case volume, with the same neck tension, etc, the seating should always be consistent, therefore this should be the answer for all of us, and maybe it is....

GGG

 

[hometownhero]

As for there being a lube issue with the turning mandrel if you're brass is stuck on it, I stepped up to TiNi mandrels on all and have never had an issue....pay 25% more for TiNi, or lube, and relube, and lube again. There's no bloody way that your brass should be stuck on your turning mandrel if you're doing it right.....
GGG

Like I had said the ONLY brass that sticks is lapua. I have a 5 gallon pail full or winchester, hornady, remington, and federal brass that I have reloaded until it was no good and none of it was a problem every. Cheaper and less screwing around trying to get it to work. Why would a person lube brass after it has been cleaned? You just have to clean it again.

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

Like I had said the ONLY brass that sticks is lapua. I have a 5 gallon pail full or winchester, hornady, remington, and federal brass that I have reloaded until it was no good and none of it was a problem every. Cheaper and less screwing around trying to get it to work. Why would a person lube brass after it has been cleaned? You just have to clean it again.

Exactly my point. Lubing is dumb.

I haven't turned 10's of thousands of pieces, but I've turned a thousand (lapua and Nosler), and not one has stuck on my turning mandrel.

I tried to ignore you earlier this week, but this app sucks so bad that we can never be separated completely.

In light of that, and our relative proximity. should one of us piss the other off going forward, I propose a duel - a most ridiculous duel - involving clays or paper (i prefer clays), and the winner receives one 6 pack of SK craft beer.

Deal?

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

claaaaaash royaallllllle.

 

[hometownhero]

Exactly my point. Lubing is dumb.

I haven't turned 10's of thousands of pieces, but I've turned a thousand (lapua and Nosler), and not one has stuck on my turning mandrel.

I tried to ignore you earlier this week, but this app sucks so bad that we can never be separated completely.

In light of that, and our relative proximity. should one of us piss the other off going forward, I propose a duel - a most ridiculous duel - involving clays or paper (i prefer clays), and the winner receives one 6 pack of SK craft beer.

Deal?

I like shooting clays but beer is disgusting.

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

I like shooting clays but beer is disgusting.

Would you like wine?? Whiskey?? Rum?? Tackila?? Tea?? Coffee? RO water??

 

[hometownhero]

Would you like wine?? Whiskey?? Rum?? Tackila?? Tea?? Coffee? RO water??

JD is good. What is RO water?

 

[RonR]

RonR, my flatland brother, has asked many good questions and humbly, yet obsessively delved into precision.....i now will seek his advice!!!

I really do like my 21st setup, but I've heard really good things about k&m too. It was a coin flip.

As for there being a lube issue with the turning mandrel if you're brass is stuck on it, I stepped up to TiNi mandrels on all and have never had an issue....pay 25% more for TiNi, or lube, and relube, and lube again. There's no bloody way that your brass should be stuck on your turning mandrel if you're doing it right.....

RonR, let's go shooting when it warms up.

GGG

GGG, thanks for the nice words but I really don't have anything to offer. Just some questions for those more experienced and the willingness to share with others as a sophomore my mistakes and successes. That's it.

Ummm, going to have to research TiNi mandrels. I wasn't picking up what you were putting down earlier. I believe KM recommends Imperial Wax as a lubricant. If these mandrels can work non lubricated then it indicates that the KM system inherently has the extra step of cleaning as I have been doing. Its a PITA and if it's avoidable it makes too much sense not to consider something else. (as noted by yourself and HTH) I have to think for a bit and see if I can change the order up and make this cleaning requirement coincide with another existing cleaning operation.

Shooting...you bet. You show up with the arsenal you have and I'll show up with my -08, 303br and my slingshot. lol.

You're a thinker AKA, and persistent, despite multiple people suggesting that you're Sunray with a moustache&glasses mask on.

You're jamming into lands idea makes sense, yet doesn't always appear to work. It is, however, the most reproducible method I've heard to date. Who gives a F what you're concentricity gauge says - what does your concentricity look like 5 days after you've made the rounds, and driven 18 miles on a gravel road on the way to the range, and dropped your ammo case, and filled your driver seat with farts??? Probably not so good. I don't carry my reloads in a hermetically sealed padded case, does anyone??

(This is CGN. I bet someone will state that they do....)

....so, your thoughts are theoretical, but not wrong. Somewhere here, on the interweb, are the details of an experiment done about 40 years ago where the individual balance and stability of bullets was tested via a spinning dremel type thing, using amperage draw on the spinning motor as the outcome measurement. Bullets that were off balance drew more amps, and were used for varmints. Bullets that drew few amps were used in testing and were insanely accurate.

So, question, not being a ####, but of your "jam them all" theory works, why not leave them all proud by .020 and use the lands as your seating die?? If you have the same powder charge in the same case volume, with the same neck tension, etc, the seating should always be consistent, therefore this should be the answer for all of us, and maybe it is....

GGG

I'm sorry... I don't have nearly the smarts, the wit, nor the experience to formulate that question but darn it, it's a good one and I'd like see a response. My interpretation is that the jam hypothesis presented by AKA would be a trumping factor to all the prep that's been incorporated by the bencher's for a long time...but again I'm not that smart just curious.

Like I had said the ONLY brass that sticks is lapua. I have a 5 gallon pail full or winchester, hornady, remington, and federal brass that I have reloaded until it was no good and none of it was a problem every. Cheaper and less screwing around trying to get it to work. Why would a person lube brass after it has been cleaned? You just have to clean it again.

Agreed and schooled.

I like shooting clays but beer is disgusting.

OUCH!!!! on the beverage bashing

Regards
Ron