Lasers on our black rifles

I agree about the reflex shooting, although unless you practice enough to relay on it, forget it. The laser is great for doing this although it does give away your pos. Weapon lights tend to disorientate but allow a quick ID of target. I personally would prefer a very bright light with momentary switch mounted on a 12ga. vs. handgun and laser. The bright flash will work like a mini flash-bang without the bang (unless you need to pull the trigger, then it will be a bang :) ). Anyhow, there will be a hundred different opinions about this...
 
actually Echo4lima I am talking about a laser on a shotgun, more than on a handgun. but as I mentioned a laser won't give you away that easily, as it doesn't show a line to your position, it can show a dot where the gun is, but again if you are around a corner, behind a counter etc. it allows you to aim without having your head behind the gun.
and yes a light is a great tool, it causes both auditory and visual exclusion. but lights don't help with aiming, night sights and lasers do.
 
Salvex Slavex Slavex.... White lights do indeed aid in aiming, not as well as say a laser but they do aid in aiming. Night sights aid in sight alignment more than they aid in sight picture as night sights do not illuminate your target. How does a white light cause auditory exclusion? If you must point your gun around a corner and you must see the laser in order to "aim" than why not put your head behind the gun (as in shoulder the rifle or extend your arm with a pistol) and shoot like that?

CF
 
ok auditory exclusion due to white light. during exposure to high light situations, I can't remember the level right now, but many Surefire lights meet it, your body goes into protection mode, and things like the ability to hear, see and think get either shutoff, or severely scaled back. Which, for those people that have done advanced low light tactics (or perhaps even some beginner courses) will have observed. Hit someone with the light quickly, turn it off, enter the room, and then have them aim their light at where they think you are. 99% of the time they will aim at where they saw the light come from. Perhaps Piperdown can put it in better terminology, or Swampy maybe, both of them have far more experience at this than me.
Now as for aiming and putting your head behind the gun. In a tactical environment, or self/home/defense situation, a light can also be used against you. If you leave it on too long during target identification, or it's not bright enough, the opponent can easily use it to target you. Lighting up your target to identify it, then using the weapon's laser, allows you to aim without exposing your head from the same place as the laser/light. that means if the badguy starts shooting back at you, you are as far removed from the line of fire as possible. Certainly there are reasons not to do this, but having the laser gives you more options than not having it. Proper search techniques lend themselves to using lasers to "pie" around corners and up stairs.
 
I might add that the beam itself can be visible if the laser wattage is high enough you don't actually need smoke or dust, a cool feature of the higher powered green lasers is they project more visible light combine with the increased sensitivty of human eyes we can see a BEAM yes a BEAM in low light.

I agree 100% with Slaves analysis, pointing a dot is fast is VERY easy.

I was shining my laser on a Crappy Tire store exterior wall the day I bought batteries for it, I was in the parking lot..- it was like 4:30 still light but overcast, and from 75 yards I could easily see it. (no it wasn;t attached to a gun :) )

I have a feeling that with a high powered scope your going to catch the location of your laser dot on a gophers fur,hair , pelt... dark surfaces really absorb that light so try to find light colored gophers :D


http://wickedlasers.com/

fed
 
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Actually after the first shot the laser will reflect on the smoke particulates and draw a line right back to you!! heheh
 
fair enough Echo, but if you're in the kind of ####storm where you are taking multiple shots, I'd want everything on my side that I could have, night vision, IR illuminators, large dogs etc etc etc.
 
According to Massad Ayoob, Director of the Lethal Force Institute in Concord, New Hampshire, auditory exclusion is the result of a primeval decision in the cortex of the brain that “there is only one thing that concerns us now, the eyes still see and the ears still hear, but the cortex of the brain is screening out anything that is extraneous”. Tunnel hearing is a distortion the most common manifestation of which is diminished sound “which can range from total loss to sounds seemingly muffled and distant.”
Click to expand...

as this was explained to me, a number of things can cause "tunnel hearing" or auditory exclusion, these include things like gunfire, super bright lights (like the ones tactical officers may carry), flashbangs, scenes of violence, and fighting. Flashlights used properly can cause this, as has been demonstrated to me, and a few others on this board who attended a low light training course a few years back. Further to that I've read up on a ton of information on it, and it's easy to see why flashbangs work so well, they are including two, if not three, things into the mix, which are known to cause auditory and even visual (tunnel vision), exclusion, an extremely loud noise, an extremely bright light and in some ways a violent surprise due to the nature of delivery of the first two items. Nor is this type of event limited to violent encounters or tactical scenarios. Think about what happens to people during car or plane crashes, very often they comment on not hearing anything after the incident has started. Due to the surprise nature of these things, your brain simply goes back to it's most simple programing. The first step of which is to shut down anything extraneous and focus on the problem at present. So when you hit someone with a bright light they focus on it, ignoring all the other things they were doing at the time. Given enough time they can get back to whatever they were doing, which might include hunting you down, or whatever. That's why you don't keep the light on them, you light them up for a second, stop the light, then move, light them up, stop, move and so on.
But of course what do I know?
 
I understand the principle Slavex. What I don't quite understand is your use of laser and light. Are you saying one could illuminate their target(briefly!) then concentrate on the laser dot to engage the target? If this is indeed the case, how are you supposed to know your target has remained where you illuminated? perhaps the target moves? also, how are you supposed to use a laser and light and a long gun? holding up a long gun with one hand is tough at the best of times. Unless you were using a combination laser and light(mounted) such as an M6. In that case, I would illuminate the target, causing the "deer in headlights"(sensory overload/sensory exclution) syndrom and engage the target while the target is still present and identifiable using illumination, fore-going the laser altogether. Would this not be a viable solution?

CF
 
Canfire,
With a laser like that you could get back some of the money you spent on it by doing some tattoo removal in your spare time.
 
Cannonfodder, your idea at the end of your post is certainly viable, but may or may not be the best course of action. Due to a volatile environment, most schools of thought believe that lighting up a target for a long period of time, during an actual shooting situation, is not ideal, a quick burst of light, and then fire if warranted. But most of the time it is hoped that the target will surrender upon the initial burst of light. That's why you light up briefly and then move. If you need to light up again you are not in the same place and you will once again cause the utmost confusion possible in the target. The longer you stay in one place the more dangerous it becomes to you. there are times of course where shooting and identifying happen all in the same time, but leaving the light on allows for the target to get used to the light, and focus in on the light's source to return fire, this is not good. As well most often, or so I have been told, it's low light situations, not no light, which means you might be able to see well enough to target someone, but not well enough to identify them. Once you've accomplished the identifying of your target, they are now blinded from the light, unable to see you easily, you've moved and can still see them, therefore a laser will aid in your target acquisition if you choose to fire. Of course laser's aren't necessary, and good night sights can accomplish the same thing. On handguns, a handheld light and weapon mounted laser can work wonders, or both on the gun. On long arms it's typically a weapon mounted light and laser, either individually or together. I know the teams that use my facility to train in don't currently have any lasers mounted, although they would like them.
again to summarize, lighting up a target with constant illumination allows for easier targeting of you as the target gets used to the light and track it's source. It also hinders your ability to move and not be noticed. Moving light is very easy to follow. Due to the brightness of the lights I am talking about (if I remember correctly you have to be over 100 Lumens) a quick flash is all that is needed to cause both auditory and visual exclusion and also shut down the thinking centers of the targets brain, momentarily. Loss of balance, ability to process thought, tunnel vision and tunnel hearing are all things that can and often do happen during sudden exposure to bright lights. This must be exploited by the user as much as possible, to gain as many advantages as possible. The most important of these in a hostile environment is movement. And if you can move without being noticed, which the above helps to cause, so much the better.
 
Slavex,
I agree with you. I have done some low light work and practiced many of the same techniques you describe. I would definitely not illuminate the target for any sustained amount of time. Seeing as how the purpose of illumination is to indentify the target and identify a threat, I would not hesitate upon confirmation of both criteria to engage. Personally should you illuminate the target then move without engaging you are losing the element of surprise and providing a relatively equal opportunity for the "intruder" to engage you. Now had I illimunated the target with a constant on beam there would be no need to switch off and move. Upon identifying the "intruder" and not identifying an immediate threat(knife or gun) I could choose to use verbal commands(of the colourful sort) to instruct the "intruder" out of my home. During the same situation, as I mentioned above if I were to identify a firearm or a knife I would omit the verbal and move directly to lethal force. I understand in this "pro criminal " country we live in that by doing such you just might be asking for some serious legal trouble. Personally I will shoot first and ask questions later. Anyone with a weapon who forcably enters my home has just signed their own death warrant.

In the situation of diminished light. If I can identify the target and threat without the use of supplemental illumination than I would refrain from using it unless my goal was to disorient the target and/or engage.

CF
 
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well from the course material I've been taught, and the people I've trained with, who do it for a living, the illuminate and move is the preferred method, as it keeps up the element of surprise as you aren't ever where they expect you to be. A home self defence situation is a lot different than a LEO operation, and that is also different than a military application. Obviously the people involved are going to use what is most advantageous to them, in a particular scenario.
 
Slavex,
Good point, its hard to argue tactics for multiple situations. I do agree that light then move is by far your best option, whether you decided to engage or not I would definitely be moving after illuminating.

CF
 
Lasers = eye candy = :)


Carefull hunting with your lasers attached to you rifle, For example Alberta Hunting Regs specificly say "Hunting with Light is prohibited" This would include lasers. Could get your rifle / and vehicle ect seized.
 
What Hellpit said ...
I was told by a CO that a laser is considered a "Visible light source" = "pitlamping [ even in the daylight ] if used on game.
Makes about as much sense as any other gun law... namely not much.

Lasers are probably legal for hunting Hooman Beans,
however,
playing with a laser on anything but a wall
quickly shows it is quite a bit slower than an Eotech.
 
Lazerus2000 said:
What Hellpit said ...
I was told by a CO that a laser is considered a "Visible light source" = "pitlamping [ even in the daylight ] if used on game.
Makes about as much sense as any other gun law... namely not much.

Lasers are probably legal for hunting Hooman Beans,
however,
playing with a laser on anything but a wall
quickly shows it is quite a bit slower than an Eotech.
Click to expand...

At least in Alberta, fed007 would be legal... "Gopher hunting" ain't "hunting" as far as the Fish Cops are concerned, and only the rules of good sense and reason apply. Hang a 25 round mag on your 10/22, put a Frickin' laser beam on it and you are good to go! However, Echo4lima's grouse hunting friends might have to wait to see if the judge thinks that a laser is light source or an aiming device. I would actually like to find out from the conservation officers if there is any enforcement guidance on the subject to go by, so I could try it myself, or know to stay clear.

I think if you were walking around in the bush with a laser equipped shotgun and were not actively hunting, and you and a bear were to get into a disagreement.... you would most likely not face any sanction for the laser, assuming that the conservation officers agree with you that you shot in self defence. On that point, I recommend carrying an extra knife to plant in the bear's paw after you shoot it to help you out - "Officer, I had to shoot the bear charged at me and it had a knife! It was self defence!"
 
Lasers.....I remember when we tested them on our handguns.....basic consenus was that to much time was wasted getting the laser on target in right place. Using the laser as a sight was definitely slower than using iron sights. It was also difficult to pick up the laser in bright sunlight on a target.

I would definitely advocate the use of a bright light over the laser. Whats in their hands can kill. I want to see whats in their hands as well as temporarily blind them.

Auditory exclusion usually happens in those "oh ####" moments. These are usually a critical incident that unfolds rapidly before you, a lethal force encounter, a potential one, something way out of the ordinary that causes the fight or flight signal in the body. The fight or flight reponse in ones body moves the blood rapidly to the core. It also causes a huge adrenalin dump, one loses fine motor skills, tunnel vision can occur at this time as well as auditory exclusion. When auditory exclsion happens one may not hear certain sounds, or certain sounds like ones own gunfire is diminshed or muffled. Ones perception of time and certain details of the event can also be affected. Having been involved in some incidents in the past, all of these things happen to one degree or another.

I don't know if a blinding white light in itself can cause auditory exclusion. It hasn't been in my case. However, if it is used in a situation similar to what was described above, it certainly can be a contributing factor in some incidents if it was flashed in the bad guys eyes.

I don't pretend to be an expert on this. I have looked into the readings on these effects having been involved in a number of them. There are many experts who have written, studied and conducted numerous experiments on these very subjects. Interesting but a times highly clinical reading. (Meaning drink lots of coffee or you'll fall alseep)

My two cents on lasers and white lights. I'd go for the light instead of a laser...
 
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I'm kinda partial to grenades myself, but has anyone tried out Crimson trace lasergrips? They look to be useful for a defense handgun.
 
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