Last round bolt hold open??

Atleast you will "try" to use the bolt/slide lock when under stress. I agree its all about the training. I disagree with the use of either the bolt catch or slide lock. This method might work under warm ideal conditions. However the use of either will not be as successful with cold weather gear(gloves) muddy, bloody or damaged hands. Why not minimize the number of movements you must learn and always use the slide(sling shot method) to charge your pistol and always use the charge handle on your rifle. Its less to learn, less to forget and both methods always work regardless of which condition/state your firearm is in.

TDC
 
TDC said:
Atleast you will "try" to use the bolt/slide lock when under stress. I agree its all about the training. I disagree with the use of either the bolt catch or slide lock. This method might work under warm ideal conditions. However the use of either will not be as successful with cold weather gear(gloves) muddy, bloody or damaged hands. Why not minimize the number of movements you must learn and always use the slide(sling shot method) to charge your pistol and always use the charge handle on your rifle. Its less to learn, less to forget and both methods always work regardless of which condition/state your firearm is in.

TDC[/QUOTE

My thoughts exactly
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The bolt catch on a M16FOW is at the perfect postion for ones thumb after one has inserted a mag and given it the push-pull.

Even with a redi-mag on mine its not an isssue

I know there is a divide on this issue - however Larry VIckers, Ken Hackathorn, "Supper" Dave Harrington and other high end training folk are still recommending it.
Since you hand is right there after loading - its economy of effort.
 
TDC said:
Atleast you will "try" to use the bolt/slide lock when under stress. I agree its all about the training. I disagree with the use of either the bolt catch or slide lock. This method might work under warm ideal conditions. However the use of either will not be as successful with cold weather gear(gloves) muddy, bloody or damaged hands. Why not minimize the number of movements you must learn and always use the slide(sling shot method) to charge your pistol and always use the charge handle on your rifle. Its less to learn, less to forget and both methods always work regardless of which condition/state your firearm is in.

TDC
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No the bolt catch/slide lock method works very well with less motion ie moving a thumb or palm slap rather than taking the weapon from a shooting stance and grip to use both hands to perform a one handed operation.
If your gear interferes with the use of your primary weapon then change it.
There is no operation on a properly designed weapon that can be considered a fine motor skill (with the exception of field stripping it), it's all push, pull and grab easily acomplished whe our "reptile brain" takes over.
Ecomony of motion means that the minimum amount of motion is used I'd rather move a single thumb than an entire arm to do the same motion.
The operating parts of the weapon (slide, bolt) are already brought to the rear during your imediate action (tap RACK bang) there is no need to grasp them again to relase them.
 
Reaper,
The ability to change ones gear is not always an option. I have yet to see a good pair of winter gloves that permit usable dexterity to the point of operating a slide lock with ease.

I agree that the bolt release on the AR platform is perfectly setup for simplistic movements upon reloading. As you mentioned, a PROPERLY designed firearm will work for the operator not against them. Such examples would include the other popular combat rifle, the AK and its variants. That being the case, streamlining your training to work with more rifles in more configurations with fewer learned techniques would be a great benefit.

The use of the slide or charge handle are 100% guaranteed to cycle the action and get your firearm back into play. As I mentioned, both methods work well with wet,dirty, bloody, or damaged hands. They also work well with unfamiliar firearms.

The use of the charge handle does not require removing the rifle from a shouldered/mounted position. An IA drill may not result in a "bolt to the rear" condition. Thus upon reloading a press of the bolt release will produce no result and require another IA to correct. Why not eliminate the possibility of a failed IA by defaulting to an IA based reload? Conservation of movements along with conservation of motion would be the ideal method.

TDC
 
Whatever.you do your drills I'll do mine they work for me, and has for the 25 yrs I have used an AR FOW platform for work and play. I have tried every conceivable way to improve the speed and accuracy of my drills so far none has come close to the method I use.
 
Take the M1 carbine for example, with no bolt hold open. It may be a unique case, but mine won't cycle if you insert the mag and rack the c/h (perhaps the no give on a pinned mag?). This results in having to pull back the c/h and lock it, and then having to load the mag and release the handle. It would be a much simpler operation if it locked back, so the only movement required after replacing the mag would be to pull the c/h back and release.
 
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mtallman,

You should be using cover whenever you do a reload so sight picture is not so critical. A firearm not in a ready state means the operator is not functional. If you can't shoot back, its time to seek cover until you can return fire.

Systems that employ a last round hold open don't always work. Firearms are mechanical, they fail. LRHO is operated by the magazine, the most common component to fail in any system. The time lost by cycling the CH instead of the bolt release will be less than using the BR only to find the bolt not releasing because it wasn't being held open. Again, reaching for the BR with no result only requires the operator to execute an IA. Reload procedure + IA = functioning rifle. IA used in place of separate reload procedure = functioning rifle. You tell me which one requires fewer movements and less time to complete.

TDC
 
You can also be moving when you reload...

Yes the sytem is fallible -- but worse case is you end up doing and IA and work into the RA of reloading.

A pistol is much easier to see if the slide is locked back - I dotn suppose we want to cut out the slide lock on them just to "simplify them"

You can argue the sematics of the bolt catch or the slide stop (I use the bolt catch and yet run the slide on a pistol - its my muscle memory and it works). I've seen it taught both ways - by very high end people, and in the end they will recommend one way or another - but most won't force you into adopting it - provided you way works under stress.
 
Kevin,
I'll admit, I find myself using the BR at times as well. That's the way I used to do it and I haven't been able to get out of the habit. There is no 100% correct way, there are many ways. Some are ridiculous while others are debatable as is the case here.

With a well maintained rifle and a competently trained operator I see no reason why the BR wouldn't be 99% reliable. My only concern is whether or not the value of learning a technique that is geared for specific designs is worth the minor gain in speed over using the CH. I see the CH as slightly slower but is more universal, works everytime, and builds off existing IA muscle memory. The CH method is also better suited to left handed shooters. Some folks cannot reach the BR with their left hand or lack the strength to release it. Again, learning a technique that is design and shooter specific for the minor gain in speed doesn't appear to be a great bargain IMO.

At the end of the day, you're right. As long as the guy behind the trigger can do it under stress and do it quickly. Who cares how the rifle/pistol is being operated.

TDC
 
Trust me Clobbersauras, you feel it quite well when a large hunk of metal doesn't slam forward with all of the might of the recoil spring. Even on automatic fire you can feel the bolt cycle (or not) with each round you fire, or on the last one. Or on any misfire.

And if you lost count of your rounds and don't have something like, say, a tracer as the fifth last round in your mag (I'm talking about the 30-rounders I'm issued, nothing that's legally available on the civvy streets in Canada, of course), the feel of the bolt not going forward will be enough to tell you it's time to change mags.

As for the re-cocking, whether with pistols or rifles, I'm a charging handle/slide type of guy. The bolt catch on the C7/AR15 platform, sometimes, just doesn't want to cooperate. And when you need to get that rifle firing again quickly, you don't want to fiddle with that bolt catch. The cocking handle does the same job, and it's a lot harder to miss it than it is to miss a wee little button on the side of your rifle.

With pistols, there are some (ie: CZ 75) on which I can't easily reach the slide release because I have pretty small hands. As such, to get back into action quickly, racking the slide is just as fast, and keeps my firing hand in a proper grip. And, of course, the slide is a lot easier to grab in a hurry than a small button. On older pistols (read: the Brownings the CF use), sometimes the slide lock just doesn't wanna budge and the only way to release it is by pulling the slide back.
 
Deuce044 said:
Trust me Clobbersauras, you feel it quite well when a large hunk of metal doesn't slam forward with all of the might of the recoil spring. Even on automatic fire you can feel the bolt cycle (or not) with each round you fire, or on the last one. Or on any misfire.

And if you lost count of your rounds and don't have something like, say, a tracer as the fifth last round in your mag (I'm talking about the 30-rounders I'm issued, nothing that's legally available on the civvy streets in Canada, of course), the feel of the bolt not going forward will be enough to tell you it's time to change mags.

As for the re-cocking, whether with pistols or rifles, I'm a charging handle/slide type of guy. The bolt catch on the C7/AR15 platform, sometimes, just doesn't want to cooperate. And when you need to get that rifle firing again quickly, you don't want to fiddle with that bolt catch. The cocking handle does the same job, and it's a lot harder to miss it than it is to miss a wee little button on the side of your rifle.

With pistols, there are some (ie: CZ 75) on which I can't easily reach the slide release because I have pretty small hands. As such, to get back into action quickly, racking the slide is just as fast, and keeps my firing hand in a proper grip. And, of course, the slide is a lot easier to grab in a hurry than a small button. On older pistols (read: the Brownings the CF use), sometimes the slide lock just doesn't wanna budge and the only way to release it is by pulling the slide back.
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Case and point...

TDC
 
The main fact is to get the weapon into action ASAP, regardless of which method is used.There is no right or wrong way of getting it done ,as long as the end result is rounds on target. We can discuss this to death but there is no use switching the way you do it to appease some "expert" or some wannabe expert,if it works go with it and that is the bottom line.
 
If you train properly, you should be able to do both without thinking... (operate bolt catch or charging handle)

Why not discuss something else? Like replacing empty magazines into the tac vest? Now THAT is a waste of time.
 
It always was the case as more are finding out, it seems the body armour doesn't allow mags to be stuffed down the shirt ..who would have thunk it??
Decades of ignorance are finally being sorted out one firefight at a time.
 
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