Lathe & Mill ?

Blastattack said:
They're that bad? If the best your machine can do is +/-.005 it's scrapmetal. With proper skill, a decent machine and appropriate tooling, one should be able to hit +/-.0005" to +/-.001" all day, every day in any material.
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You haven't taken a really good look at some of those combo machines, have you.... There's at least a few I've looked at which had the cross slide and compound dials graduated in .005" (that's not a mis-type) graduations. .002" graduations are only found on the better combo machines. Add to this the flex created by the tall towers and often less than massively cast beds and yeah, I don't doubt that they can be that bad.

With some more skill and knowledge the errors could be cut in half. But at their core the cheaper ones are just not good machines.
 
Blastattack said:
They're that bad? If the best your machine can do is +/-.005 it's scrapmetal. With proper skill, a decent machine and appropriate tooling, one should be able to hit +/-.0005" to +/-.001" all day, every day in any material.
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I'd have to agree with this. They are tough, but not that tough, to get results with, I think. But BCRider's assessment isn't far off either though.

The problems with the combo machines are mainly that they need a bunch of experience, and a fair bit of confidence on the operators part, to get anything done well, and in a general sense, those that have that confidence and competence, are NOT the guys that will generally buy them.

Usually, their lowest RPM is too high to comfortably thread with, they seldom have a great selection of threading pitches on tap, and they are a bit...gangly to use. The milling feature is often very limited in the actual work envelope, and the set-up and breakdown from doing one operation to another is a time eater. They don't do any of the things that they are supposed to, well.

They are pretty good machines for a wood worker, and surprisingly, a pretty decent basis for doing metal spinning, forming shapes in thin metal sheet by turning it against a mandrel with pressure applied with a hand held smooth tool. Mainly because of the high revs and the tall center heights.

My ML7 was pretty much my first 'real' metal lathe (compared to the WW Pattern watchmaker's lathe I got before it) and I eventually sold it and moved up to a Super 7 Myford. I like it, and it serves my needs, but I would not recommend it as an 'only' lathe in a gun shop by any means. But you will accomplish a lot with it, if it is the only machine you have. It will not run a barrel through it's 5/8" spindle bore, but useful all the same, and will teach you to operate a lathe. I had an opportunity to upgrade to a quick change equipped S7, so I took it. Otherwise, I had no complaints with the ML7.

I figure to have my Myford still, long after I sell on the rest of my machines.

I think pretty highly of it. Unless I can replace it with something far better that is still able to be run in the basement (like a Schaublin 135 or similar), I'll keep it.

Guys that learned to run a lightweight lathe do really well when they get on a big lathe, in my experience. Guys that ran and learned on a big lathe have a harder time learning to work with the limitations of a lightweight lathe. You gain an appreciation for sharp or otherwise well ground tools!

Cheers
Trev
 
John303 said:
Thank you all for your comments & in-sights. I've been "looking" around at new & used but am a bit leery on used.
Right now I'm leaning towards Busy Bees # B2227L, 10x18 with a 1" bore, seems like a decent machine that's on sale.
--- John
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Hi John:

I've had the B2227L for a few years now and find it very good for my needs.
Like Trev said, the minimum speed of 115RPM is high for threading but I've managed with it.
It won't cut left hand threads out of the box, you will have to modify it when you need that.
It comes with change gears for English and Metric threading, I've not yet run into a TPI it won't do.

4 jaw chuck(plus plate) is not included so add that to the price.
I added a quick change tool post that makes it a lot faster to change tools but the stock tool post is solid.

Today I could use a 3" spindle bore but I have a plan to get around it.
I primarily use HSS cutters but I have some carbide insert tools which work fine on some jobs.

Overall I'm very happy with it, I can hit .001" accuracy fairly easily.
 
Rifleman, a trick you can use that is common for Myford owners is to make up a crank handle that you add to the rear of the headstock hole. The handle is set up with an expanding plug that pressure locks to the outboard end of the spindle. You've now got yourself a hand operated lathe that can be used for precise cuts even up to a shoulder.

Oddly enough this is only something that is easy to use on smaller machines which don't have a the back gear. It was something I was going to make up for my Myford when I had it. But then I got the bigger lathe and all work on the Myford stopped right there.
 
BCRider, I'm not understanding what your mod is for.
If it's for threading, I've always been able to cut a groove for stopping in so I have more time to disengage the lead screw.
How is it different from just rotating the chuck?
 
Yeah, for threading, when you do not have the option, or do not wish to put a groove in, essentially you are putting a crank handle to turn the spindle on the end of the spindle. Saves wear and tear on the hands turning the chuck that way. :)

Cheers
Trev
 
I'd been given to understand that the 1227's slowest speed would make such a thing difficult to time well. Especially if cutting up close to a shoulder. The idea of cranking the spindle by hand instead of using the motor is to give you total control of the cutting and where it stops. Some of us simply aren't able to time things that well.

It also gets worse when cutting coarse threads where the advance per turn is greater. In the 8 to 12 TPI range that carriage is moving along fast even in back gear.
 
If you've got the space, I would also recommend separate machines. This will allow you to spend less on a comparable small mill (benchtop/columb type) and a much better lathe. Don't get me wrong, I love working on smaller lathes, but a something in the range of a 13x36 would be pushing it on the small for barrel work. I'd take a decent used lathe in the 14x40 or 16x60 range over a brand new combo machine any day.
 
The RPM is definitely another factor in the equation. Between 12 and 16 speeds ranging from ~30 RPM (20-50) to ~2000 (1500+) RPM is optimal. Having a quick change for every imperial thread from 4 to 56 is also a must, and having the change gears to cover everything from 1 TPI to 112 TPI is an awesome thing to have. You'll likely never use them, but it is a super fun practice to make a 1"-4 start- 4 TPI thread and matching nut. Watching the nut spiral down under it's own gravity is very satisfying.
 
trevj said:
Yeah, for threading, when you do not have the option, or do not wish to put a groove in, essentially you are putting a crank handle to turn the spindle on the end of the spindle. Saves wear and tear on the hands turning the chuck that way. :)

Cheers
Trev
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One of the first things I made for my lathe was a handle to turn the spindle. I find it invaluable when re-head spacing older (1890's era) single shot or lever guns. On these old guns the sight, barrel bands, mag tubes and most often, octagon flats need to be indexed one full turn of threads. Often the existing threads only allow 1/2 turn or so before bottoming out so I set the lathe up to cut that particular thread and turn the headstock back and forth by hand until I have the tread required. This way I don't have to cut the groove previously mentioned ( have an original 1885 in 45-90 that someone else had "grooved" that developed a chamber bulge right at the groove, had to cut entire thread section off and start over).
The other part of indexing these old barrels that makes the manual handle very useful is when cutting the barrel/action buttress. A very small cut is sometimes needed for that perfect fitting octagon barrel... take a hair excess off and the whole 1 full thread/chambering process has to be repeated. I can make very small shaving cuts using the hand crank and watching the shavings with a magnifying glass at the same time. Might seem like over kill but that extra little tightening 1/12th turn you can give a modern steel barrel into a modern steel action may spring these 130 yr old frames and their not easy to replace these days.
 
Not much familiar with the PA lathe, but I bought one of their mini-mills a couple years back (one of the last of the red machines - i see they are blue now, but probably the same basic machine.)
Consider both of them "project" machines; ie they need a few improvements & modifications before they will perform satisfactorily (sp?): belt drive, adjustable column brace for the mill, etc.
A good source for parts and info is littlemachineshop.com, and several of the yahoo groups, for these machines.

I have the Busy Bee 2227L lathe, and I find it ok for most hobby work. Not much good for doing barrel threading, etc. with only a one inch spindle bore, but I'm more into the model (steam, etc.) engine thing anyway :)
 
fingers284 said:
A tooo-short lathe is like a 4" husband...seems like a good idea at the time but frustration soon builds to the breaking point... especially when she knows there is an 8" model out there just waiting to be put to good use.
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There is a difference between a True Craftsman and a backyard hack...

a True Craftsman can work magic with that 4", whereas a backyard hack barely gets by with the 8" model

anyone who says an 8" model is needed, has NEVER met a true Craftsman!

I've won money proving that one out!
 
when I bought my lathe, I was gooing for a KING 12-36 with the taper attatchment but it was not available any soon at this time so I went for the 14-40 and I am realy happy about it
for the mill, my budget did not alow any bigger than the KING PDM-30 and as long as I take fine cuts at slow feed and little lower rpm, it works just fine
if it can help, this is a project I made with this cheap mill
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/763062-my-first-stock-building-project
 
Very nice job on the Swede. I just watched a used, but still in nice shape 14-40 King lathe sell at an auction for $3200 yesterday. It had a few hundred (prob less than $500) worth of extra tooling & bits with it. I thought it held its value from new fairly well.
 
It's been awhile and let me say I've read and appreciated all the comments - it would be nice to "Sticky" this as I'm sure many have questions
that have been answered for others and much in the way "doing things" could be added..
I've been looking around after reading all this and the more I looked the more I realized that I would use a milling machine a lot more than a lathe.
My initial wish was for a combo but that it seems is not the "best of both worlds" so I'm going to look at milling machines probably starting
with something at BBs. Again any comments / direction would be appreciated. --- John
 
Just remember small stuff is do-able on bigger equipment but bigger or jobs that need to be done "quickly" are not easy (most times impossible) to do on a mini-machine.

Define your "work parameters" and buy accordingly!!!!

The mini machine will be from 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a larger machine but the tooling you will need to acquire will be 80-90% of the cost for same for the larger machine...not much price advantage for the small machine.
 
The good news is that you aren't going to need to mount a barrel in a mill. At least not GENERALLY! The only time I could see that as a requirement is for fluting barrels or similar operations. But most medium machines will handle the 16 to 18'ish inches worth of travel needed for such work. You'd likely just need to make up a jig that extends beyond the table limits to hold the barrel and indexing gear. But such a thing isn't all THAT hard to make up for special needs like that.

At a MINIMUM I'd suggest the CT054. But the 12 inch spindle to table maximum would likely prove limiting. A little better would be the CV602.

Note that both of these use a proper column with dovetails. Unless you can find a round column machine for dirt cheap stay away from them unless you really enjoy being frustrated a lot. They are fine for smaller work but anything that requires adjusting the height by more than the spindle travel quickly turns into a dog's breakfast.

Going a little more upscale the CX603 looks not too bad but I'm surprised at the still small table size and table travels.

Looking at Grizzly I'm REALLY liking their G0757 combination horizontal/vertical machine. It'll be a little light duty for either case but the ability to use a horizontal bar and "saw" cutters opens up a lot of options. If you don't leap out of your skin at the cost it looks like a helluva machine for the money. But with the added versatility comes the need for a lot more cutters and accessories. So be prepared to dish out a bunch more for tooling over the next couple of years.

I'm currently using a mid size round column mill/drill. Hence my suggestion to avoid the round column designs. Size wise I've managed to get around the limits by using my head and making up the odd jig to hold things. But two things you can never have too much of is spindle to table height and table size. The rest you can fudge. But these two things are the items that will torpedo you in the blink of an eye. Spindle height you ask? Look at how tall some of the vertical rotary tables and other indexing options need for tooling space. You'll quickly come to the conclusion that 12 inches is a rock bottom minimum. And even that will produce problems more often than you might think. 14 is nicer but a good honest 16 or more is the goal.
 
Over the last six months I have purchased a mill and lathe. I went with Grizzly as they seemed to have a decent product, were very helpful and delivered quickly. I have a GO750G the supposed gunsmith lathe and a GO755 mill. The mill was the top end mill/drill with quite a jump in price to a knee mill. I am still learning and playing with them. There have been no defects show up so far. I have made the mill chatter but will solve part of that problem by lagging to the floor.
I farm and work with firearms so they will be used for a variety of jobs. I put four foot LEDs over each machine, sure brightens up that corner of the shop.
 
a good Colchester lathe and a Bridgeport mill.

I have worked with these for years, it takes skill and knowledge of your specific machine, not name, not brand, your machine will overtime become it's own.

Know how it operates and you will do well, working with and knowing your machine is like having a mistress, you have to keep them happy with maintenance and they will be there for you when you need them.

Plus they can be bought at auctions for a steal.

You will need a forklift
 
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