Lee 309-170 RF

dearslayer

dearslayer

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If I order the above mold to cast for my 30-30 I want to also order the sizer to save on shipping cost. What sizer should I get...309/310??? Would I be safe with either of these or should I slug the barrel when I get time to get exact measurements? It's for a Winchester 94 lever. I know slugging is probably best but wondering if anyone had luck just ordering a standard size right out of the gate.
 
You need to slug the barrel and go at least 1 thou over that measurement. Powder coating will help with enlarging the size of the bullet an extra thou or two depending on how many coats you need. Remember most Lee spec'd mould are under sized from what is stated on the box, depending of course on your alloy and temperature you use. Most of my 30-30's love .310 or .311 bullets.

I have an old 1917 manufactured Win 94 with octagon 26" barrel and honest to goodness a sewer pipe has more rifling in it than this rifle. I bought it off a guy for 200 bucks for parts "because you can't hit anything with it". My original thought was to get it opened up to a 38-55. I have 5 rounds of factory 30-30 ammo someone gave me so I thought I would try it at 50 meters for the heck of it next time I am at the range and see what I get. So I put up a 18"x18" target on the plywood with my usual newspaper white covering around it to make sure I would hit the 4x8' piece of plywood somewhere. Honest to goodness my 18" shotgun shooting 00 buck would have a better pattern than these 5 shots. I think it was around 14" at 50 yards.

I poured some 311041 bullets (the standard 30-30 bullet that every manufacturer is compared to) and let them harden up for a day. They mic'd out at exactly .311 so I tried them to make sure they chambered ok. Since they did I powder coated them with one coating and .312 was achieved which I tried and they chambered ok. I kept powder coating a layer to see how big I could go and still chamber and I found in this rifle .314 was the limit. So I stuck to .313 and you have to work the action quickly for positive feeding. Well I tried the rifle with the .313 with my usual 5 round per ladder loading and the best group I got at 50 yards was just a hair under 1". I couldn't believe it, I turned this old girl into a shooter. I tried it at 100 meters with the correct recipe and 10 rounds to see what kind of accuracy I could get and just over 2.5" was achieved. Honestly most of my 30-30 rifles or carbines and trappers will do that with cast bullets. It really opened my eyes to how little rifling you really need when the correct bullet is used.

The rifle sat in my safe for a few years and two years ago I took it hunting for white tail deer in Alberta. I shot a nice 4 point buck that was walking at 120 of my paces broadside thru both lungs on a cut line, it ran about 30 yards into the bush and that was it.
 
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Here is my theory. All commercial bullets you buy will be .308-309-ish. and they obturate very little. I cast and size to .309, no issue so far.

You can powder coat and gain another 0.001-0.002

Some of the older guns may have quite the tolerance swing and you should swage those.

Lead's cheap, try some as cast first

Careful when you powder coat these bullets

https://youtu.be/_nLpkXihueI
 
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Its not a waist of money if your rifle requires a 3.11-.313 as hunters rifle does. No mater what size mold or lead alloy you use, powder coating makes a proper sizing die absolutely worth it. I load 1/2 dozen cast bullet calibers for more than a dozen different rifles with bores that vary from 2 yrs old to 150 yrs old. I have some appropriately sized molds and a lot of undersized molds for these rifles but I do have an appropriate sized bullet sizer die for every rifle. an appropriate sizer & powder coating can make a shootable slug for any rifle.

Some folks still deny the usefulness of powder coating but for me it is the most useful innovation in the shooting sports that has come in a long time...quite frankly the cost savings and ease of casting useful slugs has kept me shooting those rifles.
 
I couldn't begin to count the number of bullets I've run through 30-30, 308, 30-06 rifles. Most, if not all, have been gas checked, run through a LEE .309 sizer die. Light loads, I just tumble lube them in LEE Liquid Alox with a light coating for the gas checking, then give them another tumble with a bit more Alox. If I am shooting heavier loads, I add a bit of blue lube to the grooves with my fingers. Most rifle bullets I cast are mostly WW with perhaps a little bit of linotype added.
 
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If your going to slug the barrel do it from the muzzle. Over size lead balls work well. Start it with a short piece of wood dowel, just so the ball is about and inch in. Then switch to a brass rod.
I don’t bother slugging barrels. I take a bullet and push it in nose first with my fingers. If the rifling engraves on the nose it will likely shoot well. Unless your barrel is worn out 0.309 should work.
 
Snider shooter said:
If your going to slug the barrel do it from the muzzle. Over size lead balls work well. Start it with a short piece of wood dowel, just so the ball is about and inch in. Then switch to a brass rod.
I don’t bother slugging barrels. I take a bullet and push it in nose first with my fingers. If the rifling engraves on the nose it will likely shoot well. Unless your barrel is worn out 0.309 should work.
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Well the barrel is definitely not worn out. I doubt very much that it seen much more then a box of ammo when I got it about 25 years ago or more and I only fired maybe a box of ammo myself over the years. Maybe I'll order a 0.309 and a 0.310 sizer along with the mold.
 
Snider shooter said:
The Lee mould drops it’s bullets at 0.309. Ordering a larger sizing die is a waste of money. I use this bullet in many 30 cals sized to 0.309.
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My 170 gr FP GC lee mold drops 0.311", i powder coat and size to 0.311"
I get 1.5" groups at 100 meters with 30/30, 308, 30/06 and some 303 british. Some 303's with larger bore diameters - the bullet tumbles
For those I size larger bullets to 0.314" - no tumbling, great accuracy
 
I'd order the mold and a .309 sizer and be done with it, with powder coating as a back up plan (which is easy peasy) or just shoot them as cast. The exact same model of bullet mold will vary in size slightly depending on when it was made in the production run, and even depending on your lead mix and temperature. I've never had a Lee mold drop a bullet from the mold less than + .001.

https://support.leeprecision.net/en/knowledgebase/article/mold-diameter-tolerance
 
I also have the 309-170 for a 30/30and 30-06. I didn’t fret about slugging the barrel. ( As George Dubya Bush said “It’s not rocket surgery”.) I went with a Lee .309 sizing die because - what the heck - gas checks should be the same size as the bullet’s bearing bands. The added bonus of the .309 sizing die is the ability to size 00 buckshot (.330 dia.) for grouse loads in a 30 cal. rifle. Sweet.
 
I’ve used the same mould for my 30-30 and sized to .309.
Pushed by IMR 3031 out to 100 seems to do the job.
I’ve since moved to the NOE 165gr FNGC sized to same .309
Same with my Lee 200gr RNGC for my 308.
 
I have the Lee C309-170-F, 170gr mold, it comes out at .309 and the powder coating brings it to about .310/.311 cal. Not much need to slug a newish barrel unless it shoots bad. If it shoots factory ammo it will shoot this.
 
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Al Bear said:
I also have the 309-170 for a 30/30and 30-06. I didn’t fret about slugging the barrel. ( As George Dubya Bush said “It’s not rocket surgery”.) I went with a Lee .309 sizing die because - what the heck - gas checks should be the same size as the bullet’s bearing bands. The added bonus of the .309 sizing die is the ability to size 00 buckshot (.330 dia.) for grouse loads in a 30 cal. rifle. Sweet.
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Now, why did you have go and say that! 😜 I can see me back in the shop sizing buck shot. I did that with .395 cast balls, pushed them through a LEE .410 sizer for testing in my .410/.303 loads. First, I laid them on the vice and whacked them with a hammer, then sized them.
 
After years of diligently slugging the bore, reading loading manuals, and cast bullet manuals I found the phrase " the best cast bullet resizing swage is the throat of the rifle barrel.
With 30 caliber bores and all manner of cast bullets I have come to the conclusion that I will use the largest diameter bullet that will allow chambering without resistance. In some 30/30 and some 308 caliber rifles this allows me to size to 0.310" or 0.311" rather than 0.309" I have discovered that in 30 caliber rifles sizing a cast bullet to 0.308 will usually result in larger groups than I am happy with. Sizing to 0.309" will reduce group size but give the odd flyer. Sizing to 0.310" and the number of fliers is reduced.

If a 30/30, 308, 0r 30/06 will happily chamber a 0.310" powder coated bullet it will usually give equals size or slightly smaller groups than the same bullets sized to 0.309" (usually). To date larger cast bullets have never given a larger group.

I use NOE cast bullet sizing dies - And I size after powder coating.
 
10x said:
After years of diligently slugging the bore, reading loading manuals, and cast bullet manuals I found the phrase " the best cast bullet resizing swage is the throat of the rifle barrel.
With 30 caliber bores and all manner of cast bullets I have come to the conclusion that I will use the largest diameter bullet that will allow chambering without resistance. In some 30/30 and some 308 caliber rifles this allows me to size to 0.310" or 0.311" rather than 0.309" I have discovered that in 30 caliber rifles sizing a cast bullet to 0.308 will usually result in larger groups than I am happy with. Sizing to 0.309" will reduce group size but give the odd flyer. Sizing to 0.310" and the number of fliers is reduced.

If a 30/30, 308, 0r 30/06 will happily chamber a 0.310" powder coated bullet it will usually give equals size or slightly smaller groups than the same bullets sized to 0.309" (usually). To date larger cast bullets have never given a larger group.

I use NOE cast bullet sizing dies - And I size after powder coating.
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I've pretty well settled on this same idea.
Sometimes I'm limited by the availability of non-standard luber-sizing dies but from what I understand the NOE sizers are available in pretty much any size at all.
 
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These are from a wet phone book test I did a few years back (when photobucket was free) showing the Lee and NOE cast boolits.
Range was 100yds
Same powder charge of IMR 3031 for both.
Guess which one I like better….
 
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kjohn said:
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Now, why did you have go and say that! �� I can see me back in the shop sizing buck shot. I did that with .395 cast balls, pushed them through a LEE .410 sizer for testing in my .410/.303 loads. First, I laid them on the vice and whacked them with a hammer, then sized them.
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The sized 00 buckshot is too small for my bullet seater die ... so I eyeball them and finish seating them with my vise. The case necks should be slightly flared ( of course). Works a real treat in my 30-06 (over 5 grains of N100).
 
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