Lee 500 gr 3R bullet mould

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Sharps '63

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Anybody got some first hand experience with this mould? Been reading some mixed comments on the net about, some liking it, others condemning it.

Those happy with it are using the single cavity version. Those with the DC version complain about overheating of the too small blocks and bullets deforming when dropped due to the lengthy cooling period required between casts to prevent that.

Read one comment that the design of the grease grooves was detrimental to the bullet's flight! From the fired bullets I've recovered over the years, they obturate to the point where the grease grooves all but disappear. Several bullet designs (some Minies and Brit "Express" bullets) have sawtooth grooves that act as bore scrapers and were not thought to be detrimental in any way.
 
Some people just hate Lee products on principle, many of them never having used one.

I have this mold in single cavity and it works well. I use either a strong fan or a dampened cloth to cool the mold between castings when the bullets get "droopy".

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When you say that it works well, at what distances have you shot it with what results? Start with 200-300m and beyond.

I have no use for Lee dies. I swear at them rather than by them, but I have four Lee aluminum blocks moulds and have had little to no trouble with any of them. I do find that you have to be gentle with them compared to steel blocks. By that I mean closing them carefully to get pin alignment.

The 500 3R design widens on the bore side of the grooves to pack on more lube. One of the 'sperts on the net said that affected the flight of the bullet! Once the bullet obturates, grease grooves seem to get compressed regardless of their shape.

Gotta wonder where some of this stuff generates from .....
 
I've also heard some mixed things about them, with one fellow saying that it's apparently impossible for them to fly farther than 700 yards and that by 500 yards they are sailing sideways toward there apparent and inevitable collide with earth in 200 yards or so. The Bullet design looks reasonably stable, it has a good ballistic coefficient and im sure that if they are properly cast, sized and loaded for your particular rifle that there shouldn't be too much problems at all practical ranges. I will be buying one of the Lee mould for this bullet to use in the Sharps I have on the way. I am excited to see how it fairs.
 
I appreciate the input. The comments I've read on the net re: the Lee design is that the DC model heats up and retains the heat, requiring a lengthy cooling off period to avoid bullet deformation on opening and dropping the bullets.

I usually cast with three steel moulds in different designs and types in order to allow sufficient cooling time and mould over heating. The simple solution with the Lee DC 3R design would be to cast with a pair of these moulds, keeping the bullets from each in separate lots. I do this already with my Lyman DC 457125 moulds.

I just bought a Pedersoli 'Silhouette' '74 Sharps with a 32" 1x18" twist barrel. I'm going to experiment with a few different bullet types and the Lee mould offers an inexpensive way to do it.
I've been researching everything Mike Venturino has written on the topic and have all his articles in back copies of "Handloader" and "Rifle" magazines. In the Dec/Jan 2013 issue of "Handloader", he has pics of several designs he has used, MANY of them with either bore or under-bore diameter noses longer than that of the Lee 3r design, the Postell RN being one such design.

Anyone who can't drop such a bullet without deforming it, needs another hobby.

Our range has a 500m limit. Even if that is the extreme range of the Lee bullet, I can live with that.
 
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I've been doing some reading on bullet "droop" or "slump", allegedly the problem with the Lee 459 3R design.

I'm wondering if it could be attributed to the rifling twist being too slow for the length and weight of the bullet? The current standard for 45-70 is 1-18, some even faster.

Currently, there are several such bullet designs on the market - bullets with long noses that don't engage the rifling. In fact, almost ALL of the designs used in long range events (500m+) are of this type.

Another factor might be the alloy used to cast bullets. This might explain why some are happy with a particular design and others not.
 
I just researched a couple of articles published in the BPCN by the late Dan Theodore re: bullet slump with long nosed BPCR bullets. His findings, while interesting, were compiled while shooting paper patched bullets. Most of us are shooting 'naked', or grease groove bullets. However, the same principles of stability are involved.

As the portion of the bullet that contacts the rifling bumps up, the under bore bullet nose is unaffected. The more nose ahead of the CG, the more pronounced the effect of bullet "slumping". It results in less than round holes at extreme ranges and such bullets are more easily affected by cross winds.

He and his associates did enough shooting to verify his findings. The problem can be alleviated by care in seating bullets to assure concentricity and experimentation with bullet alloy and hardness. The problem is acerbated by too soft an alloy which allows more bullet upset on the driving band portion of the bullet.

With the increased interest in LR BPCR shooting, a compromise has to be reached whereby bullet weight/hardness and nose length are not working against each other.

That's a nutshell version of what I THINK I read in the articles. I'd be interested in hearing what some people are shooting in the way of long range bullets.
 
I wonder if powder coating or a copper wash would be enough to stabilize them. I also usually cold water quench pure lead bullets, perhaps that could increase the outside of the bullets hardness enough to offset the "slump"?
 
Most BPCR rules stipulate 100% lead bullets, so a copper wash is out. Wouldn't do anything to solve the problem anyway. Bullet hardness is thought to be a factor.

Instead of pure lead, harden it with a little wheel weight metal.
 
I have shot that bullet and many Lee lighter weights out to 1000 yards. In 3 different 45/70's. I have also shot it over Black powder, rifle powder and pistol powder. It will be alright out to 500 yards because it is not dropping like a mortar like it does at 1000 yards. I have many recovered bullets and none of the lube groves close up. Unless they impact something, like a steel target.
Freshly cast awaiting lube for smokeless powder shooting.


Cast and lubed the pan lube way. These will be sent in front of Black Powder.


The latest challenge, a 535 grain Lyman postell bullet.


I do have fun with a bullet and gun.
 
Sharps '63 said:
I just researched a couple of articles published in the BPCN by the late Dan Theodore re: bullet slump with long nosed BPCR bullets. His findings, while interesting, were compiled while shooting paper patched bullets. Most of us are shooting 'naked', or grease groove bullets. However, the same principles of stability are involved.

As the portion of the bullet that contacts the rifling bumps up, the under bore bullet nose is unaffected. The more nose ahead of the CG, the more pronounced the effect of bullet "slumping". It results in less than round holes at extreme ranges and such bullets are more easily affected by cross winds.

He and his associates did enough shooting to verify his findings. The problem can be alleviated by care in seating bullets to assure concentricity and experimentation with bullet alloy and hardness. The problem is acerbated by too soft an alloy which allows more bullet upset on the driving band portion of the bullet.

With the increased interest in LR BPCR shooting, a compromise has to be reached whereby bullet weight/hardness and nose length are not working against each other.

That's a nutshell version of what I THINK I read in the articles. I'd be interested in hearing what some people are shooting in the way of long range bullets.
Click to expand...

I think that most people are using longer, heavier, bullets once you get past midrange distances. The Money bullet is super popular of course. I am shooting a 1.47" long paper patched Money bullet for long range at the moment. If I were shooting grease grooved bullets I would consider the same length Money bullet but with mini or microgrooves to reduce drag a tiny bit. I don't think it matters a whole lot for most of us, but a super efficient bullet might buy you a point or two in a match. In my midrange rifle ( a .40-65 ) I shoot two bullets, a Saeco 400gr bullet and a Money 400gr bullet with reduced driving bands. Ballistically there is very little difference at 600 yards, maybe a half to a single minute of windage in a ten mph full value wind. But if it's free...

Chris.
 
I've just gotten active on the Shiloh forum after a lapse of a couple of years. The guys there figure that bullets with wide grease grooves create too much drag past 500 yds These are mainly paper patch shooters and really into long range.

I'm having a hard time grasping that grease grooves have that much effect on a sub-sonic projectile. However, I bow to 'been there - done that' knowledge and experience.

The BPCR guys 2 hours north of me have a 1000m range. Ours is 500m. It will be only an occasional thing for me to shoot past 500m.

The reason I was considering the Lee 500 3R was because it comes as a DC mould. If I got a pair of them, my bullet production would increase.

Tigrr - Are you using a single or DC mould? Any tips on avoiding problems associated with aluminum moulds?
 
I like paper patch bullets and really enjoy shooting them. Last year I probably shot about 1200 or so of them in practice and matches. But very few guys who are winning the big matches actually use them. Brent Danielson and his friends our east are probably having the most success.

When I was at the Byers Colorado long range matches this year I shot with some people who are seriously experienced at long range. Guys like Michael Rix, Eron Ahmer, Rix Morritz, Jack Odor, and some guys who are moving toward the top pretty quickly like Bryan Youngberg and Robert Garibay. All of them shoot grease grooved bullets. A few of them advised me that if I wanted to get to the top I should consider grease grooved bullets. It's pretty clear why, and it's that less time wiping means more time watching the wind. It's not a huge difference, as I'm usually pushing 3 patches down the bore between shots whereas the grease groove guys were mostly using 2 I think.

With that said, my long range paper patch rifle is very accurate, doesn't lead, and is a lot of fun to shoot. I will continue to shoot it, but I may make a switch to grease grooves for 2017 just to get more time.

Chris.
 
Just the thought of paper patching bullets is enough to deter me. It's already the most labour intensive shooting I do - casting, sizing/lubing, case prepping, etc.
 
I'm not sure it takes me much longer. Probably the same if you do not include the time spent cutting patches. I think there is a small ballistic advantage, and no leading, but they take me longer to shoot.

You definitely won't go wrong with grease grooved bullets at longer distances. I've been thinking about the international match that Steve Rhoades is putting on next spring. Ten shots plus sighters in 20 minutes per target. That's a nice pace when shooting grease grooved bullets, and gives you a little time to watch the wind and mirage. I shot patched bullets that fast at the money match in Byers this summer and the wiping rod was getting a workout. I'm sure I would have shot better if I had extra time to keep the heart rate down :)

The one thing about the Shiloh forum is that I think a lot of what is discussed there doesn't necessarily mesh with what the top guys are doing. Just look at the equipment list for last years American Creedmoor Cup. The top three guys were using lighter charges than what the internet would have you believe for instance.

Chris.
 
Interesting ....

I've watched the game evolve since the late 80's when it was an all-new science. Bullets have gotten longer and heavier and twists tighter. The search for the perfect BPCR Sil and LR bullet goes on .....
Right now my main bullet is the tried and true Lyman 457125. I haven't shot it past 500m and then only on a couple of occasions. I've got a couple of 'brag' targets on my wall fired from prone x-stix at 200m and 300m with that bullet that most people would be proud of if they shot them from a modern scoped rifle from a bench rest.

One load used 60 grs Goex Cartridge FFg in Remington brass, t'other Winchester brass and 62 grs. Winchester primers and SPG lube. Rifle was a Farmingdale 45-70 'Business Rifle' with 1x22" twist, C.Sharps mid-range tang and Lyman globe front.

Years before I could afford a Shiloh, I passed through Big Timber and visited both the C.Sharps and Shiloh operations. Both were very accommodating. Lucinda asked me which rifle I'd take from the wall display of all the Sharps models. I went to the 'Business Rifle'. She said that was a 'first', most opting for one of the ladies dressed for the ball. She asked me why and I told her because it looked like a real Buffalo rifle, like the one in the glass case of the counter front.
 
I finally got my Lee mold for the 500 grain spire points. Cast up about 60 specimens, I'm going to load some over 3fffg Black, and the rest over IMR 3031, we will see what wins out of the 32" barrelled sharps I just picked up, I've got nearly 300 yards in a gravel pit with a steel gong.... I'm all a tingle.....
 
Skokie - are we talking the Lee 500 3R mould?

Congrats on your new acquisition. I know the "tingle'' you refer to. I expect my Pedersoli 'Silhouette' to arrive tomorrow. I requested one with dark wood. We'll see .....

Interestingly, Ped gets their wood from the US. They also make their Sharps receivers from machined forgings. I believe that Shiloh uses castings.
 
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