Lee collet dies question
- Thread starter SuperCub
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That's the only sizing die I use for my own rifles. Just raise the ram and screw the die in until the sliding sleeve at the bottom touches the shell holder. Then go half a turn further. When using these dies on heavy brass it takes quite a bit of force to do the job properly. I stand up so I can lean on the handle with quite a bit of weight, and turn each case about 1/4 turn and do'er again.
I haven't had to discard one single case since I started using these dies about 5 years ago, but I'm making a wild guess at double the number of reloads possible over using conventional dies.
I haven't had to discard one single case since I started using these dies about 5 years ago, but I'm making a wild guess at double the number of reloads possible over using conventional dies.
Well that's what I thought, but once the brass goes over the end of the de-capping stem, there is no resistance at all, other than a very wee bit at the top of the stroke.
Another thing that may be a factor is the fact that it is unfired brass and the "feel" may be different once it has been through the chamber. I like to resize unfire brass to bring the neck back into round. Does unfired brass do this in your dies?
thnx, sc
Another thing that may be a factor is the fact that it is unfired brass and the "feel" may be different once it has been through the chamber. I like to resize unfire brass to bring the neck back into round. Does unfired brass do this in your dies?
thnx, sc
All I can say is that the "feel" may be different between new and old brass and /or maybe between rifles where neck sizing mixed brass works for both. I simply don't worry about it that much.
There are differences in brass thickness at the neck and in chamber dimensions in the neck area, but these same variations are present if you're using conventional dies. With the collet dies it's impossible to stretch the neck of a cartridge longer (and hence thinner) which happens always with a button expander if the inside case mouth is under lubricated. It's also impossible to "oversize" the neck, or to change any other dimension of the fireformed cartridge. That bit of brass will always be correctly headspaced in your rifle, will never grow in length during the sizing operation, and will never be gooped up due to over lubrication. Put all your lube pads, Pam, wax, lanolin---whatever, and place in garbage can.
There are differences in brass thickness at the neck and in chamber dimensions in the neck area, but these same variations are present if you're using conventional dies. With the collet dies it's impossible to stretch the neck of a cartridge longer (and hence thinner) which happens always with a button expander if the inside case mouth is under lubricated. It's also impossible to "oversize" the neck, or to change any other dimension of the fireformed cartridge. That bit of brass will always be correctly headspaced in your rifle, will never grow in length during the sizing operation, and will never be gooped up due to over lubrication. Put all your lube pads, Pam, wax, lanolin---whatever, and place in garbage can.
Mystic Precision
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The amount of sizing you will do with new brass is minimal. The necks should already be close to bullet diameter.
Just size and try and put a bullet into the neck. It should not go in by hand.
Voila, all done. Load up and enjoy the best neck sizing die out right now.
Jerry
Just size and try and put a bullet into the neck. It should not go in by hand.
Voila, all done. Load up and enjoy the best neck sizing die out right now.
Jerry
What press are you using??
With the collet dies for RCBS and some other presses Lee recomends that you turn them in more than 1/4 turn. Check there web site out. If you dont do this my expierience is that you can break the dies.
In general mine have served me well.
With the collet dies for RCBS and some other presses Lee recomends that you turn them in more than 1/4 turn. Check there web site out. If you dont do this my expierience is that you can break the dies.
In general mine have served me well.
hgeo33 said:
Yeah, as I said above "turn them in half a turn". But how do you break the dies if you turn 'em in less?? I'm not saying it can't happen but I don't remember every hearing of this before. What part can break?
I started on a Lee press, now use a big CH job for the heavy stuff, and use the same half turn on each.
rodagra said:
The one and only lee collet die I have tried refused to size the necks enough to hold a bullet even though it was screwed in a quarter turn past contact as per instructions. Adding more pressure to the handle of the Rockchucker just managed to blow the cap off the die by stripping the aluminum threads on the cap screw. An email to Lee pretty well soured me on their products. They claimed that if I had taken the die apart and chucked the resizing mandrel in a drill and sanded the diameter down down with emery cloth all would have been well.
That's interesting 'Boo. Actually most of my collet dies are set with about a full turn past contact, but a half turn is maybe a better starting point. Were you by any chance using brass that had been necked down--say 30-06 down to 25-06? This creates a thicker neck, which will cause the collet to grip the mandrel much tighter as you're trying to force the cartridge case up. Decreasing the mandrel by the recomended .001 inch would help, but you would likely have increased pressure with the finished product because there might not be enough room for the neck to expand in the chamber to release the bullet. I've necked down 270 and 30-06 brass for 25-06 a few times, but use an RCBS inside reamer die set after.
Maybe you just had some extra thick (heavy) brass. ??
Maybe you just had some extra thick (heavy) brass. ??
[QUOTE='Boo]The one and only lee collet die I have tried refused to size the necks enough to hold a bullet even though it was screwed in a quarter turn past contact as per instructions. Adding more pressure to the handle of the Rockchucker just managed to blow the cap off the die by stripping the aluminum threads on the cap screw. An email to Lee pretty well soured me on their products. They claimed that if I had taken the die apart and chucked the resizing mandrel in a drill and sanded the diameter down down with emery cloth all would have been well. [/QUOTE]
I had similar results with my collet die. It took a lot of force to get it too work. I too was told to sand the decapper diameter down until it worked.
I ended up just tossing it in a drawer and using the full length die dialed up to only size the neck and a slight amount of the body.
[/QUOTE]I had similar results with my collet die. It took a lot of force to get it too work. I too was told to sand the decapper diameter down until it worked.
I ended up just tossing it in a drawer and using the full length die dialed up to only size the neck and a slight amount of the body.
Mystic Precision
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- Summerland, BC
'Boo and Wobbles, you have discovered the other special quality of the collet die that no one ever talks about. At least, not in a good way. Really surprised Lee customer service hasn't thought this one through either.
If you have set up the die properly, applied enough force to cause the collet to squeeze the necks BUT there is no neck tension (not enough to hold the bullets), you have work hardened or thickened necks.
Yes, the collet die can be used to effectively monitor your brass.
I found that out by accident. Great well prepped brass, no problems sizing, nothing changed then all of a sudden after several firings, irratic neck tension with some tight and others loose. Way different feel between cases when sizing and seating bullets.
Checked everything with no obvious problems. Started pushing harder and harder on the Lee die until I too blew the lid off the die. Polished and sanded this and that to no avail. Almost got rid of the dies. Finally, decided to anneal all of the necks...voila, problem went away.
Me likes lots!!!!!!
With most dies, the oversizing is so great that even when the necks start to work harden, the dies still 'work'. However, what shows up is degrading accuracy, neck splits, unexplained flyers, stringing and other real pain in the butt problems.
I can now monitor how my brass is aging with the collet die. I know that once fired, there is a bit of give that can be felt when the brass is sized.
If there isn't any give, the brass necks have thickened. If there is some give but the bullets seat too easily, the necks are starting to work harden so spring back too much. Either problem is bad but can easily be solved. There is no other die that let's you 'feel' this.
When brass is sized properly in the Lee die, seating pressure is very consistent and smooth. Again, any differences felt here, lets you go back and diagnose bad brass.
If you want accuracy at LR, you better be able to know when those necks are starting to vary. That will be the single largest problem for vertical stringing. This is the single biggest problem that you cannot easily monitor.
Now you can...
For me, I turn my dies way down so that the shellholder bottoms on the die 2/3 of down travel on the press arm/lever. I find this gives me more leverage and better feel of the die. You don't need to he-man down on the press arm to make the die work. If you do, check for problems elsewhere...especially in the brass itself.
Jerry
If you have set up the die properly, applied enough force to cause the collet to squeeze the necks BUT there is no neck tension (not enough to hold the bullets), you have work hardened or thickened necks.
Yes, the collet die can be used to effectively monitor your brass.
I found that out by accident. Great well prepped brass, no problems sizing, nothing changed then all of a sudden after several firings, irratic neck tension with some tight and others loose. Way different feel between cases when sizing and seating bullets.
Checked everything with no obvious problems. Started pushing harder and harder on the Lee die until I too blew the lid off the die. Polished and sanded this and that to no avail. Almost got rid of the dies. Finally, decided to anneal all of the necks...voila, problem went away.
Me likes lots!!!!!!
With most dies, the oversizing is so great that even when the necks start to work harden, the dies still 'work'. However, what shows up is degrading accuracy, neck splits, unexplained flyers, stringing and other real pain in the butt problems.
I can now monitor how my brass is aging with the collet die. I know that once fired, there is a bit of give that can be felt when the brass is sized.
If there isn't any give, the brass necks have thickened. If there is some give but the bullets seat too easily, the necks are starting to work harden so spring back too much. Either problem is bad but can easily be solved. There is no other die that let's you 'feel' this.
When brass is sized properly in the Lee die, seating pressure is very consistent and smooth. Again, any differences felt here, lets you go back and diagnose bad brass.
If you want accuracy at LR, you better be able to know when those necks are starting to vary. That will be the single largest problem for vertical stringing. This is the single biggest problem that you cannot easily monitor.
Now you can...
For me, I turn my dies way down so that the shellholder bottoms on the die 2/3 of down travel on the press arm/lever. I find this gives me more leverage and better feel of the die. You don't need to he-man down on the press arm to make the die work. If you do, check for problems elsewhere...especially in the brass itself.
Jerry
I'm sorry but I highly doubt once fired has much work hardening. My collet die would not size any brass. Inlcuding FC, Remington, Winchester, and Hornady. All of which were fired only once. The die just was not working.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Did you check to see if the collet was moving. Sometimes it gets stuck and thus does not size the brass.
Otherwise, it is such a simple device, hard for it not to work.
Jerry
Otherwise, it is such a simple device, hard for it not to work.
Jerry
You folks keep talking about 1/4 turn and 1/2 turn. The instructions say 1 full turn past contact with the shell holder. For presses like the RCBS it says to go 2 full turns past contact.
I was only going 1 turn past and after a while my brass would get stuck in the die and come out with the necks mangled. I tried everything to fix it to no avail. I bought another set and with two turns have had no issues as of yet.
I was only going 1 turn past and after a while my brass would get stuck in the die and come out with the necks mangled. I tried everything to fix it to no avail. I bought another set and with two turns have had no issues as of yet.
mysticplayer said:
No the collet is moving. I pulled it appart and there are wear marks on the collet where it had been moving. I also used my calipers to measure the brass before and after and it does resize, just not enough.
I purposely erred on the side of caution with the half turn comment. It has been my experience with several calibers and different presses that it is impossible to hurt anything by starting with one half turn. If that is not enought to size the neck, try a bit more and keep going until you get it right. Also, with conventional dies when you screw them in to contact with the shell holder that's it---they won't go down any further unless you lower the ram. With the collet die if you screw it down until the sliding sleeve is raised as high as it will go without forcing it and then go another half or full turn you will probably buckle the shoulder of the case--or worse.
As with almost everything in handloading, common sense and careful thought keeps a person out of trouble. The collet dies do take a bit more of both to get them to work properly. However I used to expect around eight reloads out of my brass until they had to be discarded due to neck splits----unless they were annealed well in advance of the eighth load. With the collet dies the number of reloads is waaaayyyyy higher. I've lost count, and have never had a split neck in any cartridge at any time since starting to use them. In other words, and contrary to some other comments here, my opinion is that "work hardening" becomes non-existent.
Afaic if a proven product like this doesn't work it's operator error or the introduction of and unknown or unusual situation such as grossly thickened brass and or a very tight chamber throat....
As with almost everything in handloading, common sense and careful thought keeps a person out of trouble. The collet dies do take a bit more of both to get them to work properly. However I used to expect around eight reloads out of my brass until they had to be discarded due to neck splits----unless they were annealed well in advance of the eighth load. With the collet dies the number of reloads is waaaayyyyy higher. I've lost count, and have never had a split neck in any cartridge at any time since starting to use them. In other words, and contrary to some other comments here, my opinion is that "work hardening" becomes non-existent.
Afaic if a proven product like this doesn't work it's operator error or the introduction of and unknown or unusual situation such as grossly thickened brass and or a very tight chamber throat....
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
wobbles, I would apply more force and move the die a couple more turns.
This is a very basic tool so there is little to go wrong.
rodagra, yes, neck work hardening due to the massive contraction and expansion of common dies does not happen with the collet die. However, all cases are subject to expansion/contraction during firing. This is the work hardening I am refering to.
More often the primer pockets or case head will expand rendering the brass useless. However, with lower (lots of reloads) or much higher pressure loads (brass flow is also part of the problem), neck hardening can and does occur.
Jerry
This is a very basic tool so there is little to go wrong.
rodagra, yes, neck work hardening due to the massive contraction and expansion of common dies does not happen with the collet die. However, all cases are subject to expansion/contraction during firing. This is the work hardening I am refering to.
More often the primer pockets or case head will expand rendering the brass useless. However, with lower (lots of reloads) or much higher pressure loads (brass flow is also part of the problem), neck hardening can and does occur.
Jerry
