Lee Enfield #5 MKI and the Malayan Emergency

I'm "standard issue" British size: 5'8" . The Jungle Carbine's stock length is way too short even for me, and I usually have to get Reliable to cut at least an inch off of most hunting rifle/shotgun butts so that I can reach the trigger.:redface:
By "poorly thought out and executed design", I was referring to the little hard "recoil pad", not the design of the rifle itself.
In order to disguise my wimpiness, I'll wear a PAST shield under my tough-guy camo smock next time. :D
 
I love my no5
I'm a competitive cyclist, so i'm quite thin and muscular, so the gun does cause some shoulder pain after some time,
however, I find it to be extremely accurate and have never had a problem with it.
 
fat tony said:
Thanks for the pics, Colin, I had heard that the Browning Auto-5 with full choke and buckshot was popular with Australian troops serving in Vietnam for sentry duty. You don't too often hear of shotgun usage by the non-US Commonwealth troops in war.

Shotguns (Greener's) were (may still be) standard issue to infantry units in the British army, and were used extensively in Malaysia and Borneo during the 50's and 60's, as well as Cyprus. The armoury in Sharjah were I was stationed for a year had quite a few Greener shotguns in the racks, and they were also available in Northern Ireland for issue.
 
"Jungle Carbine (SMLE No5) "Wandering Zero"

... Realistically, the No.5 is lighter, much lighter than the No.4 so obviously less weight to "absorb" the recoil. The butt does leave a little to be desired, but remember the weapon was developed for short range contacts and to be carried in a really s...... climate/terrain. Being deployed in the the continually damp jungles, the wood would be subject to a lot of changes, also the rifle was never intended a target rifle ! Also, at the time of it's introduction, the SLRs were just being considered by the Commonwealth Countries, and with limited budgets, the Troop felt, with justification, that if there were not faults found, they'd be stuck with bolt action rifles for years to come ! .... David K.
 
That IS NOT a recoil pad. Its there to protect the butt of the rifle when being transported in aircraft or alternately to protect the floor of the cargo area.
 
Hmm...I've heard that before, and didn't buy it. I truly doubt that the designers of the No5Mk1 rifle would have considered that aspect at all. After all, the SLR L1A1 didn't have a rubber butt pad. ;)
Anyhow...bottom line is that it is very poor design, regardless of what it was supposed to do. Even the most untalented designer/engineer understands the concept of pounds per square inch.
 
Six Star said:
Shotguns (Greener's) were (may still be) standard issue to infantry units in the British army, and were used extensively in Malaysia and Borneo during the 50's and 60's, as well as Cyprus. The armoury in Sharjah were I was stationed for a year had quite a few Greener shotguns in the racks, and they were also available in Northern Ireland for issue.
In NI we had available Rem 870's with a mag extension to 8 and the pistol grip and over the top folding stock This was stamped Law Enforcement Only.
I posted this on the army rumour service and the replies are expected.http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/p=1114583.html
 
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Ah, that would explain the "modern" weaponry. :D
I was there in 70,71 and 72 with 15 Field Workshops REME and 72-74 with the UDR when I was living there as a "civilian".
 
"Wandering zero" was indeed mentioned in field reports, and was extensively investigated by RSAF Enfield and SASC (according to Maj EGB Reynolds, a member of the Small Arms Inspectorate during and after WW2, and author of the definitive "The Lee Enfield Rifle"). After lots of indeterminate results, the No5 was declared "unfixable" and withdrawn from service shortly thereafter.

A few grains of actual historical fact have been wildly distorted by the shooting community rumour mill – with much of the rubbish coming out of the US “milsurp” collectors.

HOWEVER, no verifiable veterans' account can be found which mentions the problem. By contrast, the rifle was very popular indeed with the troops (Reynolds reports this as well) and had extensive Service support for it to be adopted as standard rifle to replace the No4 - a very sensible choice, given how light and handy the weapon is. Polls of current owners have so far failed to find any real example of the phenomena. I've tested about 40x No5s, and currently own seven of them – all can take a “wandering zero” test of 100 rounds rapid without any movement of MPI.

“Wandering zero” as a phenomena actually does exist and is common in many types of rifle. Enfield rifles are very sensitive to stocking-up, the interaction between wood forend and receiver/barrel. If part of the barrel is touching wood where it should not, then this affects the fall of shot and can change as the wood and metal expand with the heat of firing. No1 rifles (SMLEs) are by far the worst offenders, since they have a very elaborate bedding system (due to the way the rifle was developed). No4 rifles had a simplified system whereby the barrel was free-floated between chamber and front of the forend. The No5 is actually supposed to have a free-floating barrel forward of the chamber – in fact many owners and gunsmiths do not realise this and bugger it up by assuming its supposed to be like the No4.

EX_STAB wrote:
Fultons claim it's true, the reasoning being that it's not possible to get enough upwards pressure at the muzzle to pressure bed it. ......

QED!!! Fultons need to read EGB Reynolds' book.... LOL....

I think there were two sides to the No5 “zero” story:

(a) No5s were made by BSA, a commercial gunsmith, and Fazakerley, a WW2-established Royal Ordnance factory. When you look at large numbers of No5s, it is apparent that some of the Fazakerley No5s were often badly stocked up (by 1945, Fazakerley was already suffering the poor labour relations that eventually forced its closure) with the sort of “touching points” liable to cause MPI tracking off when warming up - but just like any other Enfield with a stock problem;

(b) Small-arms procurement decisions are highly political. In 1945-55 UK was still demobilising and having its defence budget slashed. The No5 was hugely popular amongst the field army and there was serious support for it to replace the No4 as standard rifle (an eminently sensible move). Having painted themselves into a corner on the issue, there was no way the War Office was going to be able to approve funding to build another c.200,000 rifles (the rough requirement for reserve at the time) whilst they had c.5 million No4s on hand plus millions of spare parts. I think that the SASC were simply steered into producing a report which allowed the No5 to be withdrawn and declared obsolete. Exactly the same thing happened with many other UK small arms projects, where a good piece of kit was deliberately smeared and then axed in order to comply with a political decision.
 
From that interesting site you posted Tim...

he No5 is actually supposed to have a free-floating barrel forward of the chamber – in fact many owners and gunsmiths do not realise this and bugger it up by assuming its supposed to be like the No4.

Now this makes total sense. :)
 
Thanks for posting that excellent info TimC! :) I probably could have ordered one of these books from Arm and a leg.com, but $300.00! Some people are farking crazy!:eek:

http://www.amazon.com/Lee-Enfield-S...ef=sr_1_2/002-0973505-9434454?ie=UTF8&s=books

Another thread in Gunboards, that I thought had some merit:

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=62158&SearchTerms=wandering,zero

Youtube video, showing very minor backwards movement :D of #5 MKI after firing (blackpowder?) :p :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z8JMxeuuf50

:wave:
 
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Oh, by the way, re: shotguns in combat, I was in Mic Mac Mall the other day at the United Cigar Store, I picked up a book called: "Weapons of the Navy Seals" by one Mr. Kevin Dockery for $7.98. :D I was there yesterday, there was one copy left. It's an excellent book! If any local gunnutz want it, it might be still there.

*envisioning a scrap over the remaining copy in the Mall :p
 
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The No 5 as free floated and done properly should have the same accuraccy as the No4 target versions in 7.62, the L42, L39 and Enforcer series because there really is very little difference!
I saw the thread and asked around on the Army rumour service website as there are plenty of old ex squaddies willing to dig stuff out!
 
I read somewhere that they finally found that the was too much
metal cut away from the receiver in order to lighten the action.
In time, the receiver would twist, and so cause the wandering
zero problem.

APG
 
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