Lee-Enfield and Ross actions, and case head separations?

[flying pig]

I've also been pondering this one for a bit. Because of the rear locking design of a Lee-Enfield vs the front locking design of a Ross, should case head separation in a Ross be less of a concern than for the Lee-Enfield system? Of course I'm not considering the enlarged Ross chambers in this, even though some Lee-Enfields are pretty generous too (even though that is at the opposite end of things). Basically I'm asking if the Ross action is much less springy than a LE. Also, are Rosses as prone to headspace trouble as a LE? Of course also not considering that anyone who knows a bit about them dedicates brass to an individual rifle and neck sizes only anyway. Which actions locking mechanism can fire more rounds before its headspacing will show signs of wear?

Really reaching out there on this one, trying to reach a greater understanding is all.

 

[buffdog]

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The problem is not so much which is less "springy" or whatever, but comes when reloading the brass cartridge cases. The chambers of rifles that have been enlarged or SMLE rifles with "generous" chambers in them expand the brass to fit the chambers when fired.

When these oversized brass cases are FULL LENGTH resized, back to original dimensions, it tends to work the brass too much, particularly in the stretched area just ahead of the base. Eventually, a crack will form in the brass on the inside of the case from repeated reworking. Once this crack forms around the inside of the case, it creates a stress point or notching effect, and the next time it is reloaded and fired, the front part of the case sticks to the chamber walls, while the back part keeps going back to the face of the bolt. At some point, it separates and that is why you get a short piece of the rear of the case ejected, and the front part of the case inside the chamber.

A wise reloader of .303 ammunition will neck size the case only. The case is already custom formed to his particular rifle chamber, so it will go back into the same rifle, but you need to neck size to provide tension to hold the bullet in place. These cases will still stretch very slightly, but you can get a lot more firings from them.

A handy little tool can be made to check cases for cracks. Take a four inch piece of thin springy wire, grind one end to a point, and bend the pointed end up so it sticks up about a quarter inch. Drill a small hole in a wood dowel and epoxy the other end of the wire inside it, thus making a tool that has a handle like a small screw driver, but is sort of "L" shaped, the short side of the "L" being the 1/4 inch pointed section. You can then insert the wire inside of a case, and by moving it slightly back and forth, you will feel the point catch in any crack that has started to form on the inside. This "pick" is Tool #1.

Tool #2 is a pair of pliers kept on the reloading bench. If you find a case that has a crack when using Tool #1, then you pick up Tool #2 and crimp the case across the middle so there is no temptation to reload it again.

Tool #3 is a stuck case remover. It is used after you were foolish enough to disregard the advice in the above paragraph, and you reloaded and fired the cartridge, which then separated inside your rifle chamber, leaving the front part of the case stuck in your chamber.
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[flying pig]

Good info on tool #1! Hopefully #2 is a no brainer. Thanks Buffdog, I'm pretty satisfied with that.

 

[Tinman204]

Buffdog, I've got tools 1 and 2 but I'm lacking #3!!

I use the hillbilly method for broken case extraction. I simply chamber the next round firmly inserting it into the broken case. Then I pull back on the bolt which extracts the broken case and the live round.

I've only had to do this once but it worked just fine!! I usually squish any cases that are showing signs of a case crack on the inside.

 

[Claven2]

The extractors work well. I typically use well worked brass for plinking and have the extractor tool in my bag. For matches, I shoot lo-mileage brass.

 

[sunray]

"...are Rosses as prone to headspace trouble as a LE..." Nope. Enfields have the issue due to the removable bolt head. Thousands of rifles were assembled out of parts bins and in garages with zero QC. The Ross' only issue(other than being a civilian rifle used in war for political reasons) was putting the bolt in wrong and that wasn't on all of 'em.
"...neck sizes only..." You can only do that with the cases that were fired out of the rifle you're reloading for. You cannot neck size only for two rifles.

 

[bdft]

"...are Rosses as prone to headspace trouble as a LE..." Nope. Enfields have the issue due to the removable bolt head. Thousands of rifles were assembled out of parts bins and in garages with zero QC. The Ross' only issue(other than being a civilian rifle used in war for political reasons) was putting the bolt in wrong and that wasn't on all of 'em.
"...neck sizes only..." You can only do that with the cases that were fired out of the rifle you're reloading for. You cannot neck size only for two rifles.

Where the Hell do you come up with this sh!t? Almost everything in this post is nonsense or a gross oversimplification.

 

[Tinman204]

Where the Hell do you come up with this sh!t? Almost everything in this post is nonsense or a gross oversimplification.

Don't waste your waste your breath, we've all tried!!

And just for the record I've fired many rounds in a tight chambered gun, neck sized them and then shot them out of a gun with a generous chamber!! No problem at all!

 

[RRCo.]

One issue with the lower end surplus Rosses can be mis-matching bolts; that means bolts that were swapped intentionally or accidentally. As there are no serial numbers on the bolts it was either something dear old Sir Charles didn't consider necessary or it was his way of saying that his QC was good enough that bolts would interchange between rifles. I suspect the latter, but it's worth checking head space anyway if you suspect the bolt is not the original.

Obviously the Ross action is much less "springy" than the Lee Enfield; it's a front locking action with a massive receiver ring and bolt head. The No1 and No4 are rear lockers with much less mass and are known to flex, which is the source of their famous "compensation" for vertical dispersion.

Commercial Rosses almost all have "tight" chambers, most MkIIIs and some MkIIs were reamed out to Lee Enfield dimensions.

I've never thought of Lee Enfields as having "head space troubles"; The removable bolt head is an excellent idea that made maintenance and tuning much easier. Problems are easy to detect and correct with basic tools and some spares.

 

[Tyler]

Where the Hell do you come up with this sh!t? Almost everything in this post is nonsense or a gross oversimplification.

Ah, Sunray. Never mind him, he hasn't even learned to quote properly yet!

 

[notsorichguy]

.
The problem is not so much which is less "springy" or whatever, but comes when reloading the brass cartridge cases. The chambers of rifles that have been enlarged or SMLE rifles with "generous" chambers in them expand the brass to fit the chambers when fired.

When these oversized brass cases are FULL LENGTH resized, back to original dimensions, it tends to work the brass too much, particularly in the stretched area just ahead of the base. Eventually, a crack will form in the brass on the inside of the case from repeated reworking. Once this crack forms around the inside of the case, it creates a stress point or notching effect, and the next time it is reloaded and fired, the front part of the case sticks to the chamber walls, while the back part keeps going back to the face of the bolt. At some point, it separates and that is why you get a short piece of the rear of the case ejected, and the front part of the case inside the chamber.

A wise reloader of .303 ammunition will neck size the case only. The case is already custom formed to his particular rifle chamber, so it will go back into the same rifle, but you need to neck size to provide tension to hold the bullet in place. These cases will still stretch very slightly, but you can get a lot more firings from them.

A handy little tool can be made to check cases for cracks. Take a four inch piece of thin springy wire, grind one end to a point, and bend the pointed end up so it sticks up about a quarter inch. Drill a small hole in a wood dowel and epoxy the other end of the wire inside it, thus making a tool that has a handle like a small screw driver, but is sort of "L" shaped, the short side of the "L" being the 1/4 inch pointed section. You can then insert the wire inside of a case, and by moving it slightly back and forth, you will feel the point catch in any crack that has started to form on the inside. This "pick" is Tool #1.

Tool #2 is a pair of pliers kept on the reloading bench. If you find a case that has a crack when using Tool #1, then you pick up Tool #2 and crimp the case across the middle so there is no temptation to reload it again.

Tool #3 is a stuck case remover. It is used after you were foolish enough to disregard the advice in the above paragraph, and you reloaded and fired the cartridge, which then separated inside your rifle chamber, leaving the front part of the case stuck in your chamber.
.

Tool # 1 on my bench is as assorted collection of straightened paper clips with a short 1/4" bent at 90 on one end......

Other than that, "what buff dog said".....

 

[bigedp51]

Traditionally military chambers are fatter and longer than there civilian counterparts and the American SAAMI standards for the British .303 chamber and cartridge are far smaller than any milsurp rifle I have ever owned.

Below, South African military .303 ammunition in a Wilson case gauge resting just under minimum headspace as it should be.

Below, a brand new unfired Remington .303 British case, the case shoulder is a 1/4 inch too short.

Below a fired case in a SAAMI Wilson case gauge, the amount the case is sticking above the gauge is how much longer the military chamber is compared to a civilian SAAMI chamber. This is also how much too far the shoulder of the case will be pushed back in a standard SAAMI full length resizing die.

A .303 British case forming and trim die can be used as a shoulder bump die, only the shoulder will be touched and the body of the case and the neck will not be sized smaller. You can use this die when your neck sized case are getting too hard to close the bolt on and bump the shoulder of the case back .001 to .002.

The following message was brought to you by the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to .303 Brass.

 

[buffdog]

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A very good visual representation of what happens, and a solution to bumping the shoulder back a bit. Pictures are worth many words.

Now if we could only get those people to post pictures when they ask the question "I got this old gun. What is it worth?"
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