Lee Enfield Mk4 question

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BCRider

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OK, I'm now the happy owner of a Mk4 No1 in full military wood but with mis matched serial numbers. But that's OK because I wanted it as a shooter and I got it at a price which reflects the mis matching along with a couple of fully disclosed "issues".

Issues? Well, it seems that the bolt has a "0" nose on it which gives the rifle enough headspace that it'll close on a "no go" but won't close on a "field guage".

So what I'm wondering is would it be OK to shoot it as is for a few rounds? Or should I source a "1" bolt nose to close down the headspace before I leap into action?
 
Well I'm no expert but I'd suspect that as long as it doesn't close on a field gauge you should be ok. I've shot several guns that closed on a no-go but not a field without any problems.

Not closing on a no-go would be optimal though.
 
Get some 5/8" o-rings (some people use dental elastics) and run them up against the rim when firing any ammo for the first time
From then on you can neck size without having to worry about case stretching that is common to Lee-Enfields
 
That is a VERY good post from DonnyFenn1.

Works every time.

I use pony-tail elastics from the local Dollar Store. Just got a box of 500 for a buck. And they are BLACK, so I have TACTICAL PONY-TAIL ELASTICS!!!!

But they do work, very well.

They will HOLD the casing TO your bolt-head, reducing Headspace to ZERO.

And you can't beat that.

Good luck.
 
"... it'll close on a "no go" but won't close on a "field guage"..." That'll do nicely. Your rifle is good the way it is.
"...5/8" o-rings..." Neither these nor pony-tail elastics do anything to fix bad headspace. Neither does bits of brass, tape, chewing gum or anything else.
 
As long as the bolt handle is .050" away from the wrist on a field gauge you are fine. As per Peter Laidler. The Brits always used the "Field" gauge.
 
sunray said:
"... it'll close on a "no go" but won't close on a "field guage"..." That'll do nicely. Your rifle is good the way it is.
"...5/8" o-rings..." Neither these nor pony-tail elastics do anything to fix bad headspace. Neither does bits of brass, tape, chewing gum or anything else.
Click to expand...

That is not the way I see it.
Excess headspace means the particular cartridge that is to be shot, has too much room to wander back and forth in the chamber. Thus, the firing pin hits the primer and drives the cartridge forward. Primer ignites the powder, the front portion of the case grabs the walls of the chamber, holding it in the forward position. Pressure drives the base of the cartridge back, until it is stopped by the bolt face. This weakens the case just ahead of the web and in severe cases, the cartridge case may blow entirely apart at that point.
When the cartridge is held tight against the bolt face, whether by a tight chamber with no excess head space, or by a band around the case to hold it tight to the bolt face, there is no excess head space between that rifle and that particular cartridge.
 
H4831 said:
That is not the way I see it.
Excess headspace means the particular cartridge that is to be shot, has too much room to wander back and forth in the chamber. Thus, the firing pin hits the primer and drives the cartridge forward. Primer ignites the powder, the front portion of the case grabs the walls of the chamber, holding it in the forward position. Pressure drives the base of the cartridge back, until it is stopped by the bolt face. This weakens the case just ahead of the web and in severe cases, the cartridge case may blow entirely apart at that point.
When the cartridge is held tight against the bolt face, whether by a tight chamber with no excess head space, or by a band around the case to hold it tight to the bolt face, there is no excess head space between that rifle and that particular cartridge.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Guess what happens to that rubber o-ring. It totally deforms under pressure. It does nothing only give you something else to fool with while shooting.
 
Thanks to all so far.

My plan is to eventually set it up for fairly minimal headspace, full length size and fire the brass one more time then neck size from then on.

But of course I've got "newgunwannashootitis" and just want to get it out and try it.

I also found out then sizes for the go, nogo and field guages for the .303. So I'm going to make some up and check the gun. For now they'll be just washers that I thickness. Eventually I'll make up some from good tool steel... if I use them often enough that is. We'll see.
 
The rubber o-ring method does two things, when the o-ring compresses it centers the rear of the case in the chamber and it holds the rear of the case against the bolt face and prevents the cartridge from stretching in the web area. By careful fire forming I have gotten 32 reloadings from cases before the necks started to split "WITHOUT" any case head separations.

American made SAAMI .303 cartridge cases run on the small side in base diameter and the rim thickness also runs on the thin side and our American made commercial cases are not made to "BRITISH" military requirements.

I have adjusted Enfield headspace from just kissing the rear of the case and under minimum headspace of .064 to .010 over military maximum of .074 without any problems at .084.

There two main ways of fire forming cases 1. create a false shoulder on the case and let the case headspace on the false shoulder 2. seat the bullets long and jam them into the rifling to hold the case against the bolt face.
Here are the problems with these "normal" methods, 1. creating a false shoulder stretches the neck of the case and leads to early cracked necks 2. the enfield rifle shot cordite powder and on a used Enfield you can't jam your bullets into rifling that isn't there any longer, meaning the rifles have throat erosion.

On my first Enfield rifles I set the headspace as tight as possible "BUT" number three bolt heads are hard to find anymore and sell for a premium price. Also replacing bolt heads is not as simple as some people think it is, you have bolthead over rotation and bolt head timing to be concerned with. A armorer has hundreds of bolt heads to pick from to repair and fix head space, "YOU" can buy one number 3 bolt head and have it not fit properly and be worse off than before. As long as you do not exceed bolt head over rotation limits you are better off fire forming your cases to fit the chamber and not replace a hard to find bolt head that might not fit when you try it out.

The case doesn't care if you seat your bullets long, create a false shoulder or use a rubber o-ring to hold it against the bolt face as long as it doesn't stretch in the web area and cause case head separations.
 
THIRTY-TWO loads out of ONE casing???

You have me beat all hollow, Biged; I thought I was doing good at 15 out of a Ross, with mild loads.

The O-ring trick works just FINE.

There are ANY number of people on this board who will attest to that. MOST of them are people who got tired of buying .303 brass BEFORE they tried it.
 
smellie said:
THIRTY-TWO loads out of ONE casing???

You have me beat all hollow, Biged; I thought I was doing good at 15 out of a Ross, with mild loads.

The O-ring trick works just FINE.

There are ANY number of people on this board who will attest to that. MOST of them are people who got tired of buying .303 brass BEFORE they tried it.
Click to expand...

Smellie you better get shooting and loading, I'm on 8 loads with a paticular lot of cases and I MAY catch you!!:):):)

Count me in on the "people who attest that the o-ring trick works" list. I've done it with all of my .303's and I'm getting ridiculous case life with this meathod. I have a no1 mk3 with sloppy headspace, and a chamber that would almost fit a 7.62x54r case. No joke it's almost that sloppy! With no o-ring and factory ammo the cases were so badly stretched at the web on one side I got 2 reloads out of them before they separated.

With orings installed I'm on 5 FL resizes and 3 neck sizes with that gun. No signs of issues either.
 
Below is my Enfield No.4 Mk.2 that I have fitted with a extra bolt head, the one that came with the rifle is just under .067, and the extra bolt head is set at .060 or .004 longer than .064. I did not use a oiled proof round to seat the bolt head "BUT" after firing a little over 100 full power cartridges I lost a .001 on the second bolt head I installed as this bolt head seated to the bolt body. Meaning this bolt head has more rotation and headspace now than when first installed because I didn't have dozens of bolt heads to choose from.

[/URL

Below is a factory loaded Winchester case that has been cut in half after firing in the above Enfield to show case stretching in the web area. This cartridge was fired with the original bolt head with the headspace set at just under .067, this factory loaded case stretched .009 on the first firing where indicated.

[URL=http://s122.photobucket.com/user/bigedp51/media/IMGP4521-1_zps36c114f8.jpg.html]

The case was checked and measured on a RCBS Case Mastering Gauge below and is how I get accurate measurements in the base web area.



There is only one down side to using a rubber o-ring around the rim, you must fit the o-ring correctly for the amount of head clearance you have. You do not want the bolt to close hard on the o-ring and apply excess force to the locking lugs and cause undue wear. Also the bolt lugs should be well greased to prevent any damage to the contact surfaces.

I fire form my .303 case using reduced loads and .312 Hornady pistol bullets to blow out the shoulder of the case.



Seeing is believing, the new Remington .303 British case below is resting in a Wilson case gauge that is made to American SAAMI standards for checking cartridge case headspace, the case is over a 1/4 inch too short and the rim of the case is hitting the inside of the Wilson gauge preventing it from dropping further into the gauge.




Below is South African military .303 ammunition, the shoulder of the case is in the proper location and the cartridge headspace is .063 or .001 below minimum headspace as it should be.




Below is a fired case in the Wilson gauge and the amount that is sticking above the gauge is how much longer the military chamber is than American SAAMI standards.



If you are shooting civilian cases in your military Enfield rifle you must make allowances for reloading dies not made to your Military chamber length, if you full length resize your cases the shoulder will be pushed back 1/8 of an inch too far and you will have case head separations.

Only neck size your cases and get a case forming and trim die, this die can be used as a shoulder bump die when neck sizing and the cases get to be a tight fit in your chamber. In the photo below my little finger is holding the case in the die and keeping it from falling out of the die while the case is hitting the shoulder of the die. Meaning the only thing the die will touch is the shoulder of the case and nothing more.



The rubber o-ring trick works and I read about it in another Enfield forum in a posting by a well respected Canadian, at first I wasn't crazy about the idea and didn't try it for over six years after reading about it. All I can say is I wish I had tried it much sooner and not thought it was a dumb idea at the time. It works and works well and solves two problems at once.




After the case is fire formed the case will headspace on the shoulder and not the rim with zero head clearance and no place to stretch in the web.



Just remember this, it was a Canadian idea that works and no duct tape was involved. ;)

 
bigedp51 said:
Below is my Enfield No.4 Mk.2 that I have fitted with a extra bolt head, the one that came with the rifle is just under .067, and the extra bolt head is set at .060 or .004 longer than .064. I did not use a oiled proof round to seat the bolt head "BUT" after firing a little over 100 full power cartridges I lost a .001 on the second bolt head I installed as this bolt head seated to the bolt body. Meaning this bolt head has more rotation and headspace now than when first installed because I didn't have dozens of bolt heads to choose from.

[/URL

Below is a factory loaded Winchester case that has been cut in half after firing in the above Enfield to show case stretching in the web area. This cartridge was fired with the original bolt head with the headspace set at just under .067, this factory loaded case stretched .009 on the first firing where indicated.

[URL=http://s122.photobucket.com/user/bigedp51/media/IMGP4521-1_zps36c114f8.jpg.html]

The case was checked and measured on a RCBS Case Mastering Gauge below and is how I get accurate measurements in the base web area.



There is only one down side to using a rubber o-ring around the rim, you must fit the o-ring correctly for the amount of head clearance you have. You do not want the bolt to close hard on the o-ring and apply excess force to the locking lugs and cause undue wear. Also the bolt lugs should be well greased to prevent any damage to the contact surfaces.

I fire form my .303 case using reduced loads and .312 Hornady pistol bullets to blow out the shoulder of the case.



Seeing is believing, the new Remington .303 British case below is resting in a Wilson case gauge that is made to American SAAMI standards for checking cartridge case headspace, the case is over a 1/4 inch too short and the rim of the case is hitting the inside of the Wilson gauge preventing it from dropping further into the gauge.




Below is South African military .303 ammunition, the shoulder of the case is in the proper location and the cartridge headspace is .063 or .001 below minimum headspace as it should be.




Below is a fired case in the Wilson gauge and the amount that is sticking above the gauge is how much longer the military chamber is than American SAAMI standards.



If you are shooting civilian cases in your military Enfield rifle you must make allowances for reloading dies not made to your Military chamber length, if you full length resize your cases the shoulder will be pushed back 1/8 of an inch too far and you will have case head separations.

Only neck size your cases and get a case forming and trim die, this die can be used as a shoulder bump die when neck sizing and the cases get to be a tight fit in your chamber. In the photo below my little finger is holding the case in the die and keeping it from falling out of the die while the case is hitting the shoulder of the die. Meaning the only thing the die will touch is the shoulder of the case and nothing more.



The rubber o-ring trick works and I read about it in another Enfield forum in a posting by a well respected Canadian, at first I wasn't crazy about the idea and didn't try it for over six years after reading about it. All I can say is I wish I had tried it much sooner and not thought it was a dumb idea at the time. It works and works well and solves two problems at once.




After the case is fire formed the case will headspace on the shoulder and not the rim with zero head clearance and no place to stretch in the web.



Just remember this, it was a Canadian idea that works and no duct tape was involved. ;)

Click to expand...

I call BS. Once I fire my No4mk2 (which fireforms the cartridge) and reload it, I can get easily another 10 loadings with it in both of my POF no4 mk2 rifles. Perhaps they have tight chambers I don't know. Once the cartridge is sized to the rifle there is no reason for it to expand extensively after that. Again that o-ring aint doin jack. I don't care how many "believers" state it. The physics simply are not there. No O-ring will keep any shape at 20,000 plus psi I dont care what it is made of.
 
davemccarthy707 said:
I call BS. Once I fire my No4mk2 (which fireforms the cartridge) and reload it, I can get easily another 10 loadings with it in both of my POF no4 mk2 rifles. Perhaps they have tight chambers I don't know. Once the cartridge is sized to the rifle there is no reason for it to expand extensively after that. Again that o-ring aint doin jack. I don't care how many "believers" state it. The physics simply are not there. No O-ring will keep any shape at 20,000 plus psi I dont care what it is made of.
Click to expand...

At 38,000 cup or 42,000 psi my 30-30 always has the primers protruding from the rear of the case, this is because the chamber pressure is not great enough to cause the case to stretch in the web and be forced against the bolt face and seat the primer. If I put a rubber o-ring around the case rim and fire it the primer is flush with the base of the case and the shoulder is blown forward.



If you have never tried this method you can't call BS because you have no practical experience on the subject, what the rubber o-ring does is BS the case into thinking it has much thicker rim and no head clearance or "air space" between the bolt face and the rear of the case.

Without the o-ring and the thin rims on American made cases you have excess head clearance and the case stretches on the first firing.



Below is a standard .308 case being fired at 50,000 cup or 60,000 psi, when the firing pin hits the case it is driven forward until it contacts the shoulder of the chamber. Then as pressure builds the primer is forced to the rear until it contacts the bolt face, as the chamber pressure builds higher the case grips the chamber walls. As the chamber pressure increases it reaches the yield strength of the brass and the case stretches to meet the bolt face.



The only pressure the o-ring is under is when the bolt closes and squeezes the o-ring, chamber pressure is pushing the case to the rear and no additional chamber pressure is exerted on the rubber o-ring. The act of squeezing the o-ring as the bolt closes centers the rear of the case in the chamber and increases case alignment with the bore and improves accuracy.

There is a difference between BS and understanding what the o-ring actually does.
 
Last edited:
smellie said:
THIRTY-TWO loads out of ONE casing???

You have me beat all hollow, Biged; I thought I was doing good at 15 out of a Ross, with mild loads.

The O-ring trick works just FINE.

There are ANY number of people on this board who will attest to that. MOST of them are people who got tired of buying .303 brass BEFORE they tried it.
Click to expand...

he is not the only one getting close to that with the o-ring trick
 
davemccarthy707 said:
I call BS. Once I fire my No4mk2 (which fireforms the cartridge) and reload it, I can get easily another 10 loadings with it in both of my POF no4 mk2 rifles. Perhaps they have tight chambers I don't know. Once the cartridge is sized to the rifle there is no reason for it to expand extensively after that. Again that o-ring aint doin jack. I don't care how many "believers" state it. The physics simply are not there. No O-ring will keep any shape at 20,000 plus psi I dont care what it is made of.
Click to expand...

Stop and look at what the guys have been posting again. The O ring only has to hold the cartridge back against the bolt against the force of the FIRING PIN. Once the primer ignites the Oring's job is done and it just sits there along for the ride. The bolt and lugs take all the firing pressure once the primer fires and the main charge ignites.

Guys, thanks for the suggestions and diagrams. A GREAT bunch of posts on this.
 
bigedp51 said:
At 38,000 cup or 42,000 psi my 30-30 always has the primers protruding from the rear of the case, this is because the chamber pressure is not great enough to cause the case to stretch in the web and be forced against the bolt face and seat the primer. If I put a rubber o-ring around the case rim and fire it the primer is flush with the base of the case and the shoulder is blown forward.



If you have never tried this method you can't call BS because you have no practical experience on the subject, what the rubber o-ring does is BS the case into thinking it has much thicker rim and no head clearance or "air space" between the bolt face and the rear of the case.

Without the o-ring and the thin rims on American made cases you have excess head clearance and the case stretches on the first firing.



Below is a standard .308 case being fired at 50,000 cup or 60,000 psi, when the firing pin hits the case it is driven forward until it contacts the shoulder of the chamber. Then as pressure builds the primer is forced to the rear until it contacts the bolt face, as the chamber pressure builds higher the case grips the chamber walls. As the chamber pressure increases it reaches the yield strength of the brass and the case stretches to meet the bolt face.



The only pressure the o-ring is under is when the bolt closes and squeezes the o-ring, chamber pressure is pushing the case to the rear and no additional chamber pressure is exerted on the rubber o-ring. The act of squeezing the o-ring as the bolt closes centers the rear of the case in the chamber and increases case alignment with the bore and improves accuracy.

There is a difference between BS and understanding what the o-ring actually does.
Click to expand...

I believe that what you explained works in theory. I just don't see it working in a practical world. I am going to try it. Hopefully you prove me wrong.
 
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