Lee Enfield TR Snipers (H&H)

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agentcq

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Okay, I am looking at two BSA (H&H) TR M47C Sniper Rifles.

One is dated 1943 and the other is dated 1944.

Both have the T marking on the left receiver and the S marking on the right receiver.

One rifle has the S51 stamping but sanded and the other does not (however both rifles have at least one stock repair and have been sanded so it is tough to say whether the other rifle had an S51 stamping that was simply sanded away).

Both rifles have MKIII scopes with MM brackets, but one of the rifles has the bracket serial slashed out and forced matched to the rifle. I read that the importers often MM rifles from their corresponding scopes so that this is not a major issue.

Neither rifle comes with a transit chest or other significant accessories.

The 1943 has a Red 'W' marked scope dated 1945 and the 1944 has a 1944 dated scope.

I know prices are all over the place - so what are some members thoughts on a fair Value?

Thank you - these are not my specialty, but I would certainly like one.
 
The mismatch is a big deal. That is the difference between a 3.5K to 6K Brit sniper rifle, and a package that is just worth the sum of it's parts. Really, a mismatch is worth nothing more than what you would have to pay to get the same things purchased and slapped together.

Without the chest, the can, the lense caps, deduct 1K from the price I listed above for the matching rifle. So for a all matching but lesser condition rifle, I would suggest 3K max, and for a all matching but very pristine rifle, maybe 4K. I wouldn't go higher for the matched, since it is not likely you are going to find the matched can and chest. Those are what would bring the all matched to the upper end of that price scale.

Since you mention that both brackets are msmatch, I would suggest that the rifles, even sanded, are worth $1000 to 1200. The scope and bracket are worth $1500. So the price is around the total of those two items. Add an appropriate amount for the sling if present.

These quotes are good for 30 days only, at which time they expire. Fifteen years ago you could have purchased any of the above for $800-900 with chests. Note that these quotes are for British rifles. Cdn rifles you can double most of those prices. Thats the difference between british production of 30,000 and the Cdn production of 1500.
 
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Are either of the scopes manufactured by REL? That would be the one game changer to the prices I quoted. To the owner of the LB sniper who needs the matching (or for that matter any) Cdn scope, there could well be a hefty premium involved.
 
AgentCQ: Be aware that many brackets were armourer rematched to a new rifle- I wouldn't call that a mismatch rather an interesting history. I have one "T" whose bracket is on its third rifle. Personally I think prices are a bit higher than the other replies. I'd love to find a good condition matched rifle/ bracket/ scope for $4000.00 but I'm not holding my breath.

Milsurpo (owner of 1 matched "T" and one mismatch and two fakes!).
 
Good point flying pig. My example has absolutely perfect collimation of the axis of the bracket to the bore. Somewhat surprisingly my non-matched set-up is also very close- a comment I've heard on a lot of threads on Milsurps. Suggests the original brackets must have been machined to close tolerances. For those that aren't aware, with an original No. 32 scope, the mechanism is such that if you have to make up for poor collimation of the bracket with the scope's internal adjustments, you end up with the post way off-center very easily.

Milsurpo
 
The collimation of the scope to bracket is critical. You may be OK at 200 yards, but if the collimation is not correct, there is a multiplication factor involved in the error over the further distances. Laidler covers all this pretty well over on the milsurps forum. The changing of the brackets is not something taken lightly. The correct bracket with a different scope is not so bad, but will still hurt the overall value.

Problem is that with the number sets now being available for only a couple dollars at Princess Auto, you have enterprising people trying to upgrade their rifles by making them match. Fortunately the Chinese steel is somewhat soft so the stamping is often obvious.

The value of an armourer matched scope and rifle is not the same as a factory pair with only the one set of numbers, where the wrist number is the same as the bracket and bolt, and the scope number is the same as the one on the S51 marked butt.

I'll stand behind those estimates I gave, but as to telling you where to go to buy one today, I can't do that. There is not a rack of them at one of the sporting goods stores waiting for buyer. But as I also mentioned, those estimates will only be valid for the next 30 days. Someone somewhere will pay too much for one at an auction, and that will become the new standard.
 
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