Lee Loader results analysis 303 - help

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Ron R

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Hi, my name is Ron and I am new to this forum.

New guys sometimes get overlooked until they earn their stripes but I am in need of some analysis for some disappointing results. Any insight would be appreciated - season is just around the corner.

I was inspired to purchase a reloader based on Steven Redgwell's superb 303 site but I am having some poor results, in my opinion, and I sent Steve an email but he is not taking emails at this time. ( Sorry Steve if you are browsing right now...I just need some good insight...soon.)

I am a novice in both reloading and on forums so please be patient.

I have loaded 2 sets of loads. One with the scoop provided with the kit and the second set using other Lee powder scoops.

FYI...recipe similar to one on 303british.com
Speer 150
Re 15
Federal primer
Method : same as instructions. I chamfer case necks in and out... I have an electronic scale to audit the weight - used on the second load set
303 mk4 II sighted in for 3" high of center @ 100 yds for Federal 150's (I have a 2 on the bolt head.)

The first loads provided 39.6g of Re15. The results were around 6" low of center @100yds. (At 200 they weren't on my target.)
The second load provided 43.1g of Re 15. The results were around 3" low of center@100yds.
Max load Re 15 is 46.2 according to the Alliant website.

Why am I experiencing such a difference in elevation between factory loads and my re loads? (Remember, this is the Lee Loader)

Is it foolish to expect the same or better performance in terms of velocity?

All help will be sincerely appreciated.

Side note...right now I am concerned with the delta in elevation and the reasons behind that...I will be concerned with my groups in the future.

Sincerely
Ron R
 
It's just a slower load than the federal factory you are comparing it to. As you can see yourself, increasing the powder charge raised the point of impact. If your single goal is to duplicate the factory ammo, keep increasing the powder charge a half grain at a time untill you get to max or the same point of impact as the factory ammo. Without a chrony you won't know the velocity of the load, but with the same bullet style and weight it will be close. The dippers are not really the best for consistant charges, weight each charge.
Now is the time to start shooting groups and looking for accuracy. Duplicating the factory velocity may not give you the best results. Would you rather have a 1" load at 2500fps or a 3" load at 2700fps? The deer won't know the difference......
Just sight your scope in for the best load you develop, don't worry about if it prints to the exact same point as factory. It's generally not hard to duplicate or exceed factory velocity with the right powder if that's all you are after.
 
Are you shooting with Iron sights? If so then they will be zeroed to a factory load. With a mil spec 303 you can deal with this by changing foresight blades for different heights. To save that bother you could always develop a point of aim load which removes the need to fiddle with the sights. Faster does not always mean more accurate as sometimes groups open out and sometimes bullet weight affects line of flight beyond all expectations. the fun of loading old military calibres is developing the load that you find works for your rifle and no two rifles ever work/shoot exactly the same! I do recommend that you ditch the scoops as soon as you can afford a decent balance beam scale and a powder dropper thingy as once set up you can get to the point where you random test every 4th or tenth round and roll them out. Obviously testing ammo where yo increase loads by 1 or 2 tenths of a grain steps every 5 rounds needs good scales and powder thrower but it is worth it even if you use a mates and I do that and help a mate of mine with his. Be careful it is almost as addictive as collecting and shooting!
 
Thanks Hitzy, I never thought about the accuracy perspective that you offered - and thanks for your quick response.

I am not well versed in ballistics, so forgive me for any ignorance, but to me velocity can/is an idication of flatness... In other words if a person works toward a high/higher velocity the results will be flatter trajectory?

(I realize that there are other factors for flatness but can we keep it simple so that I can understand and relative to what I am trying to acheive?)

Most of the deer I have shot have been under 200 yards - probably 75% in the 100 yard range but I live in Saskatchewan and a guy could shoot forever and beyond.

Tim C - thanks to you too. I forgot to mention that it's a sporterized rifle with a reasonable 4X scope on it. ( I am more than a little disappointed that it's not original but out here there are a LOT of them. Needless to say that I am proud of what I own and now it looks like an vintage car that has a few aftermarket parts...something that doesn't catch your attention at first but does the job and puts the smile

:D on my face.)

I do use an electronic scale to weigh the charges now. Prior to that I borrowed a balance beam to audit the results of the scoops. FYI the first load had a +-.4 grain variation. The second load using the tap, tap, business card techniqe resulted in a +- variation of .1 grain. For me that is accurate enough at this point. I will be investing in a powder measure in the future though.

You are absolutely correct about this being addicting. My wife, as understanding as she is, rolled her eyes when I told her that I wanted to start reloading my own stuff.

Back to the technical stuff for closing...who can help me with questions on OAL on my 303 and how it can affect accuracy? I have read that the chambers are long on these babies and your comment on no two rifles being alike reminded me of this.

Sincere thanks
Ron R
 
If you try some 180gr. flatbase .311 bullets such as Hornady's or Speer's, you'll soon discover that most of the Enfields have a liking for heavier flat base bullets.
Now, I won't comment on the Lee Loader choice but for about $100.00 you could buy a Lee Anniversary reloading kit with their Challenger press and a Deluxe set of dies (which comprise the full length die and the neck sizing one along with the Lee Factory Crimp die).
And find a friend who owns a chronograph! That would save you some learning time.
Have fun! :D
PP.
 
Ron, my manuals all dont give an OAL for loaded rounds just a case length of 2.15" to 2.22" ish the proof is wether the round will chamber and one of my mates is fanatical about setting back a thou from the rifling but I temper him with it must feed from the magazine. I load different bullets as tests with no primer or powder and cycle those through till I get an average acceptable OAL. As each rifle has worn differently this means you will have to experiment. If you shoot different bullet weights then seperate seating dies is a short cut. I go for an average setting and load 3 or 4 different weights depending upon the game. I load a 125 gn bullet for small deer and fox, I tested it to print at the same POI as my 150 gn Norma factory ammo for 100 yds so I could leave the scope set and just swap mags around. I keep a5 round mag for the lighter bullets so I can tell in the dark.
I also have a sporter, mine was a BSA No1 Mk111* 1917, sportered by parker hale in 45. It is lovely and I have had it years and yet to take anything livewith it. I sue a 6.5 CZ 550 for most of my deer. Have fun and remenber idf you reload more than 1 303, then keep the brass seperate from each chamber as they are diferent! I have the new sierra tables on CD so PM me if you want calcs doing!
 
PP, The anniversary kit is something that is on the burner for sure. Right now the volume of shells is in the 50 range and I'm reloading for my 303 only. A friend with a chronograph would be nice...have to hang out at the range a little more often. I'm a guy that likes the objective evidence besides the results @100.


Tim C, I am definately going to try some different lengths and cycle them through. Is it correct to think that the closer to the rifling a person can get the likelier the chances of increasing accuracy? (Of course, not as close as the above mentioned.) Agreed that different rifles will behave differently. Thanks for the offer, I'll take you up on it soon.

Thanks again gentlemen,

Ron R
 
Ron, sounds like you're getting hooked. Now is the time to visit your local gun shop library etc. and get at least one good loading manual. I really like the Lyman book Lee makes an ok one and it comes with the anniversary kit so don't buy that book if you're buying the kit. Everyone on this site has their preference for reloading books, software etc. I'm sure they'll all chime in, lots of worthy opinions here. Happy shooting.
 
Good question.
I show that I chronyed Imperial 150 at 2559 2551 2586 2555 fps.
The Hornady manual shows 42.2 gr RL-15 should be 2600 fps with 150 gr. bullets.
What is the number of the scoop you are using?
 
Savagefan, thanks for the tip on the manuals. The worthy opinions is why I joined the post.

Slash5, the scoop used for the first set of loads was 2.8cc. When using Re 15 the weight is 39.6 grains and the velocity is 2364 calculated - according to the load information card supplied with the Lee loader kit. The second set of loads was 3.1cc which according to the slide chart supplied with the dipper kit equals 43.9 grains of "15."

The results at the range indicate something lower in velocity than what is calculated. Using the recipe from 303british.com for 150 grain loads indicates that with 44.5 grains the velocity should be 2573 fps. The Alliant powder specs from the website, again for 150 loads, indicates 2755 fps when using 46.2 grains. ( I really wish I had a chrony!)

Thanks for the real numbers. The Imperials are that hot eh? I used 20 of those to set my scope 3" high @ 100 along with some Federals. It solidifies my questioning. I'd really like to know if I am missing something here that's elementary to everyone else.

Tonight, in an effort to get the velocity approaching factory results in terms of the elevation @ 100yds, I spiked up the amount to 45.2 grains. ( I will be concerning myself with accuracy soon after this is figured out.)

Tomorrow night I will have some results to share if people are still interested.

FYI what I have found so far...at least for myself...
Scoops can provide for consistent results...just not the weight advertised
An electronic scale and trickler can be your best friends for what I am doing.

You know...the more I do the more questions I develop. Hope ya'll can bear with me.

Regards
Ron R
 
I put up a 4' x 4' ply sheet pasted over with white paper and aiming marked spaced reularly around in neat even lines! I start and finish with a test group from a known zeroed combination (usually a good factory brand), I shoot at each mark using a different bullet wt/charge wt combo and let the rifle cool between groups. I measure the group sizes and compare the point of impact of the tight groups to POI of the factory. this can be done at 25, 50 or 100 yards as it is a simple sum to calculate group size. If you desire a 2" group at 100 yards then you need a 1/2" group at 25 yards. Easy! What I do then is record the groups that I need for load development and based on what I want (here it was a handload 125gns that printed close to the next large factory load 150 gns at 100 yds). I then pick 2 load recipes and make 30 of each.
next I shoot on a clean sheet at 50, 100 and 150 yards 2 5 round groups of each batch and measure group size and Point Of Impact as against the factory test load!


With that I am then happy to take the rifle out and effectively have a group zero for two different loads out of the same barrel with an acceptable margin of error!
Patience and a small farm are very helpful! I get my kids to come out as well! They all have a go and the wife brings the pups out to introduce them to gunfire from a distance! many birds with one stone!
As for touching the rifling this is to reduce the jump that the bullet makes on being fired into the rifling, the thought behind this is that if I travel 1 thou to engage rifling that is better than 10 thou. This has many truths but is worthless when taken as extreemly as a single shot target shooter with throat erosion and transferred to a magazine fed repeater! balnce and moderation required. once you have all of this set up, any change to the rifle can affect barrel harmonics and seriously affect the zero! Here we can fit sound moderators to centre fire rifles as helth and Safety legislation mandates noise reduction for professional and recreational stalkers. This really affects the zero and can be a whole new ball game!
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Thanks Tim C. In summary you develop re loads that match a resonable factory load and the method you use to obtain this is detailed and structured enough to get it right without having to back track.

This is exactly what I want. How many different powder/bullet/primer combinations did this take for this example? You must derive some good satisfaction in getting the exact results that you are looking for.

Right now I am working off of a known combination and trying to match it to a common "over the counter" load for 303 users here and not getting close enough. By your example it is achievable and I am sure other loaders have done it as well. Without a chrony all I have is the results on paper.

Slash5's numbers, and other manuals, indicate that calculated numbers should have me matching.

I have got to be doing something that's just not right.

Today after work I will be testing some new hotter loads. I'll post it later.

Regards and thanks
Ron R
 
Paper results are enough. Well for me anyway. What I am after is reproducing a similar point of imapct that doesnt massively vary over the distances from 50 to 150 yds. I need this as I am too idle to reset my scope when I change from 150 gn factory to 125 grain hand loads. I can cheat without a chrono and use the sierra balistics cd which in theory will save me loading each round combo to fire a test through a chrono. The important factor in the UK is the min ME at 1740 ft lbs for deer in England & wales so I need to achieve that. I can calc that using the ballistics program but that wont tell me the truth about the point of impact compared to the heavier bullet. that is about the only reason to load and test! To be honest as long as the recipe makes min me I am happy for the real test to be groups and matching over 3 distances with an acceptable variation.
make sense? Over the counter loads should make min published on the packet levels, then as long as you can achieve zero and be close to me and MV what is the prob? If hunting ammo is scarce it is more important to match POI than anything else as a 303 will do the biz at anything over 2000fps. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence but its never as much fun as finding out yourself!
Good luck and keep me informed. I find that as bullet and powder supplies vary I tend to re do this exercise every 4 or 5 years, keeping the zero and knowing the correct POI at the various ranges is the vital issue for a clean kill!
I have used a chrono when available espeially if trying to reproduce a milspec load such as 7.5 fr for the MAS 36 which is not an adjustable option. Then it is important to prove your load matches MV/ME etc as the mil. The rest is down to your shooting!
 
Tim C, I like the approach and the philosophy.

"Over the counter loads should make min published on the packet levels, then as long as you can achieve zero and be close to me and MV what is the prob? If hunting ammo is scarce it is more important to match POI than anything else as a 303 will do the biz at anything over 2000fps. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence but its never as much fun as finding out yourself!"

Snowing here and windy here right now. The range will appear Sask cold if I can get there.

PS. I have been reading the threads on the bright ring on the case after firing. I have noticed that too on mine. Got a bit of the willys :shock: after that. The lines are not consistent or visable from case to case. None of them indicate the dull look that may be a better indicator of case separation. Experiences with that?

Thanks and regards
Ron R
 
Most of my 303 brass gets the shiny ring, I put that down to poorly annealed factory brass or excessive stretch. mostly settles down, with the 303 it will be fine provided you only neck size! I used to case trim but i really cant be *rsed anymore. BTW its about 20 celcius here at 9pm GMT. into our late autumn and 2 months into our very long pheasant and partrdige and duck seasons. the doe season here started 1st nov till end of feb, march off then bucks again till Nov next. man no hunting permits or fees! have fun!
I do own snow cam, cant remeber ever using it and Orange is worn lineside at work (railway)!
 
The point of impact at 100 yards is not a good way to judge velocity.Loads with higher velocity can actually print lower at 100 yards.I proved this to a fellow one time by adjusting the boss on a browning A-bolt that I owned.The velocity stayed constant as adjustments were made,but the point of impact moved vertically as well as horizontally.The changing harmonics of the barrel do change the point of impact.
 
Yes I agree, the point I was making was that the velocity can be calculated reasonably accurately using a ballistics program if you dont have access to a chrono on the range. I was clear that the point of impact here is the important point, not MV. In my case as long as ME meets the minimum in law for the quarry then I dont care as long as I have a group zero (for want of a better phrase) for different bullet wts. Ron is trying to duplicate the factory round, something which I have done with my MAS 36 by loading in steps up to the max with the correct bullet wt and then achieving correct POI for the sight settings! Your point demonstrates what I said earlier about changing things on the rifle such as bipod, moderator etc which moves the POI. The BOSS system is ideal for finding sweet spots with factory and hand loaded ammo that will save you time experimenting with different powder wts etc with handloads. What I am trying to achieve is different to Ron, I need an acceptable poi for one rifle at different ranges with 2 different bullet wts. ron needs to tune his hand load so that he has the ammo available with one zero setting. I have done this for my mate and his 22-250. We are now at the point of ready to test the 2 preferred loads at 50, 100 & 150 for group and POI aganst his factory and prove which load we developed will replicate his factory. here factory sporting ammo is expensive and you cant guarantee batches so loading an identically performing round is a great help. He doesnt reload so I do it at my place in his presence so he knows he has the confidence to shoot that round!
 
Yes I agree, the point I was making was that the velocity can be calculated reasonably accurately using a ballistics program if you dont have access to a chrono on the range. I was clear that the point of impact here is the important point, not MV. In my case as long as ME meets the minimum in law for the quarry then I dont care as long as I have a group zero (for want of a better phrase) for different bullet wts. Ron is trying to duplicate the factory round, something which I have done with my MAS 36 by loading in steps up to the max with the correct bullet wt and then achieving correct POI for the sight settings! Your point demonstrates what I said earlier about changing things on the rifle such as bipod, moderator etc which moves the POI. The BOSS system is ideal for finding sweet spots with factory and hand loaded ammo that will save you time experimenting with different powder wts etc with handloads. What I am trying to achieve is different to Ron, I need an acceptable poi for one rifle at different ranges with 2 different bullet wts. ron needs to tune his hand load so that he has the ammo available with one zero setting. I have done this for my mate and his 22-250. We are now at the point of ready to test the 2 preferred loads at 50, 100 & 150 for group and POI aganst his factory and prove which load we developed will replicate his factory. here factory sporting ammo is expensive and you cant guarantee batches so loading an identically performing round is a great help. He doesnt reload so I do it at my place in his presence so he knows he has the confidence to shoot that round!
 
Yes I agree, the point I was making was that the velocity can be calculated reasonably accurately using a ballistics program if you dont have access to a chrono on the range. I was clear that the point of impact here is the important point, not MV. In my case as long as ME meets the minimum in law for the quarry then I dont care as long as I have a group zero (for want of a better phrase) for different bullet wts. Ron is trying to duplicate the factory round, something which I have done with my MAS 36 by loading in steps up to the max with the correct bullet wt and then achieving correct POI for the sight settings! Your point demonstrates what I said earlier about changing things on the rifle such as bipod, moderator etc which moves the POI. The BOSS system is ideal for finding sweet spots with factory and hand loaded ammo that will save you time experimenting with different powder wts etc with handloads. What I am trying to achieve is different to Ron, I need an acceptable poi for one rifle at different ranges with 2 different bullet wts. ron needs to tune his hand load so that he has the ammo available with one zero setting. I have done this for my mate and his 22-250. We are now at the point of ready to test the 2 preferred loads at 50, 100 & 150 for group and POI aganst his factory and prove which load we developed will replicate his factory. here factory sporting ammo is expensive and you cant guarantee batches so loading an identically performing round is a great help. He doesnt reload so I do it at my place in his presence so he knows he has the confidence to shoot that round!
 
Yes I agree, the point I was making was that the velocity can be calculated reasonably accurately using a ballistics program if you dont have access to a chrono on the range. I was clear that the point of impact here is the important point, not MV. In my case as long as ME meets the minimum in law for the quarry then I dont care as long as I have a group zero (for want of a better phrase) for different bullet wts. Ron is trying to duplicate the factory round, something which I have done with my MAS 36 by loading in steps up to the max with the correct bullet wt and then achieving correct POI for the sight settings! Your point demonstrates what I said earlier about changing things on the rifle such as bipod, moderator etc which moves the POI. The BOSS system is ideal for finding sweet spots with factory and hand loaded ammo that will save you time experimenting with different powder wts etc with handloads. What I am trying to achieve is different to Ron, I need an acceptable poi for one rifle at different ranges with 2 different bullet wts. ron needs to tune his hand load so that he has the ammo available with one zero setting. I have done this for my mate and his 22-250. We are now at the point of ready to test the 2 preferred loads at 50, 100 & 150 for group and POI aganst his factory and prove which load we developed will replicate his factory. here factory sporting ammo is expensive and you cant guarantee batches so loading an identically performing round is a great help. He doesnt reload so I do it at my place in his presence so he knows he has the confidence to shoot that round!
 
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