Lee Metford?

[Gomer]

My friends father owns an old .303. I assumed it is a Metford,may be an early mark Enfield.Appears to have had the wood cut back unfortunately.30" barrel,mag cut off,dial sight,volley sight(?) intact.BSAco marked as well as 'Andrews' on top chamber and a big stamped 'E',SN 36###,the side of the ladder sight looks re-stamped 100-400 yards.Do any of you Lee service rifle experts have any info you can give me on vintage?value?importation?is it possibly an early mark Lee-Enfield?
Thanks.

 

[Steppenwolf]

Nice rifle, a shame that it has been cut. It appears restorable Looks like you need wood, nose cap and bits - which are around but hard to find. Gunnutz can be a great place to find parts. These are very collectible in original, unaltered condition. The Gurus will be able to give you more advice.

Cheers

 

[John Sukey]

The E on the knoxform means it has Enfield rifling rather than Metford. Might have been rebarreled or started out that way. (early on barrels were marked with the E even if they were original.) In any case, it's a commercial rifle by BSA. And yes, they did sell them in full military configuration to volunteer units or folks who wanted to compete in military matches. By the way, you are missing the bolt cover these folks might still have them www.thedealershowroom.com

Now why does it have an American M1903 sling?

 

[Gomer]

.303 Enfield

Thanks John.You say a BSA sporter?when were they selling these,any idea?
The family says this gun filtered down to them from the Yukon in the early 1940's from another relative.The sling is a mystery.Do you think it is a Metford or an early Enfield?

 

[buffdog]

Early Lee Enfield

.
The "father" of your rifle was the Lee-Metford. That is, the Lee action combined with the Metford type of rifling. When the British changed to Cordite as a propellant, they found out that the higher temperatures of the Cordite burned out the Metford type rifling quickly.

In 1895, they adopted the Enfield type rifling to give a longer barrel life. The Lee Metford rifle was essentially fitted with a barrel of this type, thus becoming the Lee (action) mated to the Enfield (rifling). As stated, the rifles (and converted Lee-Metfords that were rebarreled) have the letter E on the Knox form of the barrel.

Makers of the military rifles also provided private citizens, Regiments, and others with the same pattern rifle as the British Army. These were marked with the makers name (in your case, BSA) but do not have the government ownership marks (eg VR, GR, and broad arrow) or a crown stamp. Some rifles were approved for use on the range as Military standard, after being inspected by the Armourer to make sure the rifle conformed to Military specifiactions, and were then stamped with a second number signifying this approval.

In 1900, a Small Arms Committed was formed to try to improve the weapon from lessons learned during the Boer war. In December, 1902, the Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield was approved. This was the SMLE Mark I and was modified in 1907 to become the SMLE Mark III

You state that the sights are re-stamped. Many of the earlier Lee Enfields and Lee Metfords were upgraded, and the sights re-calibrated because the British adopted the Mark 7 Cartridge, a pointed, spitzer type, that gave flatter trajectory. This was done before, and during the early years of WWI.

The Lee-Enfield thus had a manufacturing life in the Military from 1895 to 1902, a span of 7 years. Of course, it is possible that stocks were on hand to complete more rifles, and private purchases could have been made later due to the factories concentrating on producing SMLEs. It could also be a Lee-Metford that has been factory rebarreled. If so, it is a later Lee Metford design, with the safety catch on the bolt.

 

[Gomer]

Thanks Buffdog.Detail of modified fore end pic coming

 

[bdft]

I bought one very much like it from K98action this summer. He sent me the information that he had on it from one Englishman.ca on this board. Here it is for what its worth. Yours has the front volley sight still on it, I see. Mine has a cut down stock with only the rear volley sight. It does have Andrews stamped on the barrel though.

Originally Posted by englishman_ca
A picture is worth a thousand words, thank you for the many pics. I think that I now understand what you have there.

Your rifle started out circa 1906-1910 as a Long Lee volunteer pattern rifle, generaly of the style of the MLE Mk.I

The markings on the barrel nocks form are all standard Birmingham civvy smokeless proof marks, 1910 up. There is a Birmingham View (BV) mark on the left side receiver ring and also a Sparkbrook inspector mark on the right (B/A2). BSA bought the Sparkbrook factory in 1906.

Rifle retains its original barrel, 36280 is the serial applied at the BSA factory with the same roll die on both receiver and barrel. BB515 was applied with separate stamps by hand. I would bet it is a rack number and this was a civilian 'club rifle'. (Boys Brigade #515?). ANDREWS could be the name of the club (in those days many schools and colleges had ranges) in Canada, England, Australia, no way to tell with a civvy arm. Probably has been shot alot. How is the bore?

A great deal of competition would be at 100 yards. However, the lowest setting on mil spec sights is 200. So the sight base was renumbered to show 100 and a very tall front sight blade was fitted to compensate and correct the sighting.

The markings under the barrel are all production and batch numbers and marks. Nothing unusual there. The JP marking underneath the receiver is often seen on forged parts, and is likely the subcontractor who made the receiver's forged blank (J.B.Priestly Ltd.?).

 

[John Sukey]

Thanks John.You say a BSA sporter?when were they selling these,any idea?
The family says this gun filtered down to them from the Yukon in the early 1940's from another relative.The sling is a mystery.Do you think it is a Metford or an early Enfield?

You misread my post. while BSA did produce sporting rifles using the enfield action, what you have is a BSA commercial rifle that was in full military configuration before someone chopped it. I have a reprint of the BSA 1911 catalog (somewhere on the shelf) and both sporters and milspec rifles were available to the public.

Obviously the volley sight would not be fiitted to a sporting rifle.
the sling is hardly a mystery, it is the same sling fitted to the Springfield and didn't come with that rifle.

There would be two options for a British sling. either the standard web one fitted to military rifles or possibly the two inch wide web target sling with leather ends that buckled on.

Your rifle was a commercial one because it lacks the crown, royal cypher, and the model number
Possibly a clue is that Metfords have a dimple in the wood just below the point where the knob of the magazine cutoff sits, and yours does not.

Thats the best I can do, since I am far from being an expert on the subject.

 

[smellie]

John Sukey is right again!

Full-military rifles with commercial markings were available from a number of makers and sold in fairly high numbers. Remember, since the end of the Civil War, it has been British practice to keep the Army small and starving: the Gummint remembers Cromwell only too well.

Many Territorial and Reserve regiments had a choice: they could carry Sniders or Martinis...... or they could buy their own Lees. Many of these commercial rifles got into the military supply chain by this method. Worked fine, as they were to standard spec and parts interchanged.