'Leeway' in IPSC

Gothmog

Gothmog

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Someone told me the other day that certain leeway was informally given between IPSC shooters at matches, particularly the more experienced ones. The most serious claim he made was that some participants were moving with their finger inside the trigger guard of a loaded gun, and because of their stature in the sport, nothing was ever said about it. Now I know very little about IPSC, but this strikes me as an unsafe practice, if true.

My question is, have you ever been aware of such 'understandings' taking place and is it against IPSC rules to do such things?

And no, I will not name names, this is for discussion of the principle only.
 
sigh, Dave you seem to enjoy trying to stir stuff up about IPSC. Any particular reason for this?
as for your question, no it's not true, and sounds more like someone who got nailed for it, whining. If an RO sees a finger in the trigger guard, at a time when it isn't supposed to be, they will get DQ'd. Doesn't matter if it's Rob Leatham or Brand New Guy.
Of course, also in reference to your question, there are plenty of times when moving with your finger in the trigger guard is allowed, and you also have to define exactly what you mean by movement.
 
Leeway?

Gothmog said:
Someone told me the other day that certain leeway was informally given between IPSC shooters at matches, particularly the more experienced ones. The most serious claim he made was that some participants were moving with their finger inside the trigger guard of a loaded gun, and because of their stature in the sport, nothing was ever said about it. Now I know very little about IPSC, but this strikes me as an unsafe practice, if true.

My question is, have you ever been aware of such 'understandings' taking place and is it against IPSC rules to do such things?

And no, I will not name names, this is for discussion of the principle only.
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No "leeway' needed. There's nothing wrong with moving with your finger inside the trigger guard as long as you're aiming or shooting at targets.:)
 
Gothmog said:
Someone told me the other day that certain leeway was informally given between IPSC shooters at matches, particularly the more experienced ones. The most serious claim he made was that some participants were moving with their finger inside the trigger guard of a loaded gun, and because of their stature in the sport, nothing was ever said about it. Now I know very little about IPSC, but this strikes me as an unsafe practice, if true.

My question is, have you ever been aware of such 'understandings' taking place and is it against IPSC rules to do such things?

And no, I will not name names, this is for discussion of the principle only.
Click to expand...

In IPSC we shoot on the move all the time, so the finger is obviously inside the trigger guard for this. That is what IPSC is all about, and engaging targets while the feet are moving is not inherently unsafe.

However, if an R.O. is absolutely CERTAIN that a competitor is running around a stage with his or her finger on the trigger while specifically not engaging targets then that person should face a match DQ. No exceptions.

I would be classed as one of those "more experienced ones," and if I should ever do something unsafe I would expect to pay the price. But take my word for it; the only way an R.O. will ever know for sure if I had my finger on the trigger while transitioning is if I fire a shot accidentally or if they actually get in front of me when I am running! You can't DQ people because you THINK they have done something unsafe; you have to be certain.

In my experience people's expectations for the behavior and conduct of our top shooters are higher, and I have no problem with this. All of our top shooters must always realize that they carry with them the mantel of ambassador for the sport, and should be setting and maintaining the safety bar at a high level. I cannot speak for others, but I personally have detected no special "understanding," and would not quietly accept it if I did.
 
As someone with a relatively low stature in the sport, and an R/O I will back up what Rob said...

I have never seen anyone get away with anything untoward.....
 
"engage"

relliott said:
However, if an R.O. is absolutely CERTAIN that a competitor is running around a stage with his or her finger on the trigger while specifically not engaging targets then that person should face a match DQ. No exceptions.
Click to expand...

Not to argue the point with you Rob, but the word "engage" went out a while back. The rule is, "while aiming or shooting at targets.":)
 
This post is kind of like filling a large plastic bag with gasoline and throwing a match on it and wondering what might happen.

Gothmog, why not come out and try a match yourself?
 
USP said:
This post is kind of like filling a large plastic bag with gasoline and throwing a match on it and wondering what might happen.

Gothmog, why not come out and try a match yourself?
Click to expand...

Well, it does appear that there is some sensitivity out there (not specifically you, USP) ....:D

Not to stir anything up guys, just curious .... I wasn't sure if what was told me was correct or not and figured someone here would know for sure. There's really no need to read any more into it. I am sorry if my post suggested anything other than that, really. I heard the story and wanted to know how much (if anything) there was to it. Thanks to those that answered my question ....

USP I have shot a match or two (club matches) and intend to get into the sport as I feel it is valuable and something worth trying.
 
GMog, I think if you just ignore the "special" people and go out and have fun, youll have fun. From what ive seen its a very very small percentage of people that seem to account for the large percentage of events/actions that has pissed some people off. The over whelming majority of people I have met have been really friendly.

As for the trigger thing? I would be more concerned safety wise with somebody whos trigger is perhaps so light that even shaking the gun will set it off.. Most DQs I have seen have been from some people who have dropped their gun during a match or similar bad race holster stuff.

Statistically I bet golf is more dangerous than IPSC.
 
Slavex said:
sigh, Dave you seem to enjoy trying to stir stuff up about IPSC. Any particular reason for this?
as for your question, no it's not true, and sounds more like someone who got nailed for it, whining. If an RO sees a finger in the trigger guard, at a time when it isn't supposed to be, they will get DQ'd. Doesn't matter if it's Rob Leatham or Brand New Guy.
Of course, also in reference to your question, there are plenty of times when moving with your finger in the trigger guard is allowed, and you also have to define exactly what you mean by movement.
Click to expand...

Not really, Rob just a simple question I wanted answered.

It was a case of someone feeling that there was a double standard, but I don't believe they were personally diqualified, nor was it a recent event. It was a quite general comment by someone who had played at the game and found it not quite his thing ... and its no one you know.

I'll agree that its quite easy to misunderstand the exact application of a rule or misinterpret what goes on at a match. What official catches everything that takes place, and as you say, how exactly does one define certain terms, such as 'movement'?

I had assumed that the 'movement' referrred to was not just movement of the upper body to aim at new targets, but movement from one shooting area to another on a stage.

I know I should probably read through all the rules of IPSC, but if you could offer a few examples of moving with finger inside the trigger guard that are ok, I'd be obliged. It does strike me as unsafe but perhaps there's just something I don't understand about this scenario.
 
USP said:
GMog, I think if you just ignore the "special" people and go out and have fun, youll have fun. From what ive seen its a very very small percentage of people that seem to account for the large percentage of events/actions that has pissed some people off. The over whelming majority of people I have met have been really friendly.

As for the trigger thing? I would be more concerned safety wise with somebody whos trigger is perhaps so light that even shaking the gun will set it off.. Most DQs I have seen have been from some people who have dropped their gun during a match or similar bad race holster stuff.

Statistically I bet golf is more dangerous than IPSC.
Click to expand...

The 'special' people don't bother me at all ... I have had no bad experiences at the matches I've attended, and will be at a match for quite specific reasons, one of which will be 'fun'. I don't expect to be competitive whatsoever so that will probably keep things in perspective for me as well! ;)

I think you are quite correct about the overwhelming majority of people at matches ... that's been my experience as well. The 'beef' in my post belongs to my friend, not me .... :)

I will also state that I believe the safety record of IPSC is more than respectable. I was just trying to understand why something I thought might be unsafe could possibly be allowed and wanted to run it past some folks with a more thorough knowledge of the sport.
 
relliott said:
However, if an R.O. is absolutely CERTAIN that a competitor is running around a stage with his or her finger on the trigger while specifically not engaging targets then that person should face a match DQ. No exceptions.

I would be classed as one of those "more experienced ones," and if I should ever do something unsafe I would expect to pay the price. But take my word for it; the only way an R.O. will ever know for sure if I had my finger on the trigger while transitioning is if I fire a shot accidentally or if they actually get in front of me when I am running! You can't DQ people because you THINK they have done something unsafe; you have to be certain.

In my experience people's expectations for the behavior and conduct of our top shooters are higher, and I have no problem with this. All of our top shooters must always realize that they carry with them the mantel of ambassador for the sport, and should be setting and maintaining the safety bar at a high level. I cannot speak for others, but I personally have detected no special "understanding," and would not quietly accept it if I did.
Click to expand...

A good explanation, thanks!
 
Gothmog said:
, but if you could offer a few examples of moving with finger inside the trigger guard that are ok, I'd be obliged. It does strike me as unsafe but perhaps there's just something I don't understand about this scenario.
Click to expand...


Ok picture an array 8 targets in two groups of 4...


As you approach the first 4 targets you are welcome to shoot at all four of them as you are running towards them....

Not a problem....and of course your finger sort of needs to be in the trigger guard to do this shooting.

now....once those 4 targets are finished lets say you need to move out and around a barrier of some sort in order to get to that last bank of targets....

It is on this transition that you have a problem keeping your finger in the trigger guard..
 
USP said:
Statistically I bet golf is more dangerous than IPSC.
Click to expand...

Especially the way I play golf!:p

I am going to try and make the time to take my BB in the New Year and at the very least, shoot my qualifier...hook me up Rob!
 
Yeah oddly enough...

1. I have never shot anybody in IPSC (yet*)

2. I almost killed some guy about a decade ago in golf. I was at the tee's took a nice drive and this guy walked out of nowhere. I guess he didnt see I was hitting and was cutting across the tee blocks. ANyways I hit him in the face. I generally drive alittle over 300 so it wasnt a soft hit. He was wearing glasses. Glasses broke and stuck in his skull. Luckily he didnt loose his eye, but needed many stitches and hospital care.
 
stormbringer said:
now....once those 4 targets are finished lets say you need to move out and around a barrier of some sort in order to get to that last bank of targets....

It is on this transition that you have a problem keeping your finger in the trigger guard..
Click to expand...

OK, that makes sense, thanks!
 
'Shooter steps up to the start position and is given the command to load and make ready..
Shooter draws pistol takes a sight picture, fiddles with his sight adjustments, seats a mag, chambers a round, removes the mag, holsters pistol, tops up the mag, draws pistol seats the now full mag... takes another sight picture...

'last time I read the rules I understood this was a DQ... taking sight picture with a loaded gun... If Im right then yes. Sometimes the rules get bent. Or.. the RO isn't paying close enough attention...
Is this example unsafe...? I'd say no, but the rules are the rules and they should be applied to all equally.
 
Gothmog said:
I'll agree that its quite easy to misunderstand the exact application of a rule or misinterpret what goes on at a match. What official catches everything that takes place, and as you say, how exactly does one define certain terms, such as 'movement'?

I had assumed that the 'movement' referrred to was not just movement of the upper body to aim at new targets, but movement from one shooting area to another on a stage.
Click to expand...
Movement IS defined in the rule book.

AND

To reiterate, moving to a new shooting position with your finger on the trigger is permissible as long as you are shooting and/or aiming at a target. This may be where your friend is thinking there is a double standard. Many top shooters may not be shooting while moving, but they are very likely acquiring that next target, waiting for the right sight picture before taking their next shot.

Ok picture an array 8 targets in two groups of 4...


As you approach the first 4 targets you are welcome to shoot at all four of them as you are running towards them....

Not a problem....and of course your finger sort of needs to be in the trigger guard to do this shooting.

now....once those 4 targets are finished lets say you need to move out and around a barrier of some sort in order to get to that last bank of targets....

It is on this transition that you have a problem keeping your finger in the trigger guard..
Click to expand...

uuhmm...if you can't see the targets, you better be hoping the RO can't see your finger because you should get done. However, if you don't need to take a step, then you'd be fine keeping your finger on the trigger.
 
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667 said:
'Shooter steps up to the start position and is given the command to load and make ready..
Shooter draws pistol takes a sight picture, fiddles with his sight adjustments, seats a mag, chambers a round, removes the mag, holsters pistol, tops up the mag, draws pistol seats the now full mag... takes another sight picture...
Click to expand...

8.7.1 A warning is issued for the first occurrence; subsequent occurrences result in Procedural Penalties.
 
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