I just got back from my moose trip,and saw a couple of nice racks in the campsite,one a very nice big bull,and the other an 'immature'.I stopped to show my boys what a 'legal immature 'looked like, 3 points on one side and 2 on the other.From 25 'away,the rack on the ground,it was perfectly clear this was a 'legal immature'-EXCEPT IT WASN'T.....when I came right up to it,picked it up,one of the points flattened out and there was a 1'' 'point' that DISQUALIFIED it as an 'IMMATURE'.....but from 25 ' away,I would have sworn it was legal and shot it ......
'Legal immature'
- Thread starter ratherbefishin
- Start date
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Up north i once sat 10-15 minutes on 40power from maybe 40yards, waiting to have a baby bull move his head/shake snow. One encounters a lot of shoot and release bulls in the Peace.
it really shook me,because I was so sure this was a legal immature ,I would have shot it ,but on close examination may not have been,its up to the discretion of the CO....how in the world can you tell at 50 yards with an animal moving through the willows when its this close? I have been told that it is unlikely you would be charged if you self reported ,but have also been told of hunters who did and were charged ,fined and had their hunting privileges revolved for 5 years....fortionately the guys had an any bull LEH and tagged it as such,but they didn't know for sure....shoot and release is counterproductive the very thing we are trying to achieve-increasing moose populations,but totally understandable if you make an honest mistake[as I could have done]and don't want to be fined and and lose your hunting privileges for 5 years...
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The determination of a legal, immature moose and the curl on mountain sheep, are the stupidest laws on our books, as far as I'm concerned. Under normal hunting conditions it is IMPOSSIBLE to determine if a close one, like being talked about, is legal or not. It is just asking for game to be left in the bush, where it fell, and the hunter will go on and look for another moose.
There should be an option whereby if a really close one turns out wrong, the hunter would dress out the moose, report it, the game department would take the meat and the hunters tag would be cancelled.
However, that would be common sense and common sense is virtually non existent in todays world!
There should be an option whereby if a really close one turns out wrong, the hunter would dress out the moose, report it, the game department would take the meat and the hunters tag would be cancelled.
However, that would be common sense and common sense is virtually non existent in todays world!
I agree that this leads to a lot of wasted bulls. It's a shame. Many people would definitely self-report if they knew that all they would lose is the meat and their tag.
Others still wouldn't be satisfied with that. They'd want to use their tag to get a proper immie. So there'd still be wastage, but less.
How much meat do you get off of a calf and a yearling bull? Doesn't anyone else on these forums also think it just makes make sense to pass on shooting cows and immature moose when you have to draw tags. Don't you guys want more animals and healthier big hame populations? Why are we creating our own shortages of wildlife...we know shooting cows and calves result in lower and younger populations?
Trimmer 905
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I absolutely agree. I'm of the opinion that this is the reason we're in such a population mess with Moose in Ontario. For decades,now,to stay as a Pool 1 hunter,we need to buy a license which gives an automatic calf tag (cost=$54). We,then,enter the adult draw for Bull or Cow. Because of requirements of up to 12-15 sets of license numbers applying as a group to get one adult tag along with drastic cutbacks in adult tag allocation,the chances of getting an adult tag is roughly that of winning the Encore numbers of Lotto 6/49. The net result is thousands of hunters hitting the woods specifically targeting Moose calves with fairly high success rates. If we add in predation of calves by increased populations of Black Bears and Wolves,we now have the perfect storm for a population crash which we're now witnessing. This is nothing more than political meddling at it's absolute worst.
When I was in Cold Lake the Biologists that were responsible for setting the harvest numbers did a bit of a road show where they went around and explained their work, their rationale, and the survey numbers, from their Air Survey flights, on a zone by zone basis.
Very informative! Last time I went and sat through the brief, they said the deer populations were about 4 times what they would like to see and the moose, double.
If the populations are in a state where they determine that there are too many around, the choice becomes whether to open more opportunities, or cull them out the side door of a helicopter at some point.
Despite that some folks always would like to have more more more around, there is usually a pretty sound reason to keep the numbers lower than a lot of folks would like. Disease and infestation, esp. ticks, are two good ones. CWD anyone?
I work on the general principle that the Biologists are pretty well enough informed, and have access to a LOT of data that I do not. So, no, I won't second guess their decisions. It would be a waste of my time and money to buy a tag that I did not intend to use, which would also throw a skew into the harvests, denying those that were honestly trying to access an opportunity, the chance, as well as skewing the numbers away from a sustainable harvest, because of the lowered success rate, which would cause the number of tags issued to be raised.
If it's legal, it's all good!
Cheers
Trev
I agree, with the exception that I don't think moose calves are targeted with fairly high success... The camp I hunt with is 8 guys, and they put in full days hunting. The result, 2 calves harvested in 16 years...
So, while calves are most definitely harvested, I am not sure it is with a HIGH success rate. I would agree that I would prefer to see the calf hunting restricted in favour or mature tags.
Cheers
Jay
"If it's legal, it's all good!" Yeah great motto Trev...it was legal for grown men to bang 14 year olds in Canada with parental consent until a few years ago. Sure it was legal and worked out nicely for some real creepy old timers I'm sure.
You working for the wildlife department or something? It's precisely hunters like you who just patently support our idiot government without question that make things worse for the few hunters out there that actually want to see healthy, growing wildlife populations with proper age structure.
Our wildlife herds population distributions look like a bloody AIDS infested African country...with many young animals and few older ones.
Why don't we put a cow and calf only season in across the country and see how quickly we can make the odds of being drawn in a big game draw into the tens of millions. We already have far more hunters wanting to shoot moose and elk than there are animals in the population. Don't you think we should start thinking about increasing big game populations with sound policy like "mature bulls only for several years or just close the season...for everyone natives included. This would better reflect the sustainable development mantra that all these dumb governments are blabbing about lately.
There's a reason why outfitters have their clients shoot mature males of the species, and its not just because hunters pay more. If they starting shooting cows and calves in some of these pristine fly in areas they would have few bulls to reach maturity in only a few short years and few cows to breed.
Any outfitter care to chime in? Or you all scared to alienate yourselves?
Time to wake up and become part of the solution. You're not cool shooting baby or mama. Your actually making things harder for wildlife and the people who want to maintain healthy, growing herds.
The THEORY was a cow seldom wintered BOTH calves ,so taking ONE did not impact the overall population,preserved the larger breeding Bulls and gave hunters the opportunity to harvest a 'meat' animal....however the fact that hunting only accounts for about 15% of mortality(roadkill,trains, predation,disease,natural causes, poaching,winter kill) is indiscriminate and accounts for the other 85%.
My LEH hunting success rate is only about 33%,and given the fact that we only get about 1 draw every 5 years tends to suggest that hunting impact is very low on the species. Adding to that us the statistic that hunting licences sales are DOWN by 2/3 over the last 40 years indicates that hunting accounts for only a FRACTION of the overall moose population...and leaving an animal in the bush rather than face a heavy fine is extremely counterproductive
As far as LEH is concerned I would far rather accept one bull shared among three hunters in exchange for more hunting opportunity..Given my LEH odds and my age(69) under our present system chances are I'm not going to be on many more moose hunts with my sons unless I'm willing to shell out big bucks and go with an outfitter at a cost of $15-20,000 for the three of us...the days of just going with my boys on a self guided hunt*are looking like they are coming to a close....hardly the way to promote resident hunting
* the early 'any bull' hunt does not appeal to me, if for no other reason than the logistics of getting a carcass cooled down and transported home to avoid spoilage.
My LEH hunting success rate is only about 33%,and given the fact that we only get about 1 draw every 5 years tends to suggest that hunting impact is very low on the species. Adding to that us the statistic that hunting licences sales are DOWN by 2/3 over the last 40 years indicates that hunting accounts for only a FRACTION of the overall moose population...and leaving an animal in the bush rather than face a heavy fine is extremely counterproductive
As far as LEH is concerned I would far rather accept one bull shared among three hunters in exchange for more hunting opportunity..Given my LEH odds and my age(69) under our present system chances are I'm not going to be on many more moose hunts with my sons unless I'm willing to shell out big bucks and go with an outfitter at a cost of $15-20,000 for the three of us...the days of just going with my boys on a self guided hunt*are looking like they are coming to a close....hardly the way to promote resident hunting
* the early 'any bull' hunt does not appeal to me, if for no other reason than the logistics of getting a carcass cooled down and transported home to avoid spoilage.
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This is a thread about juvenile males. Start a cow/calf rant thread if you like. Ever notice that females of any species seem to always be able to find a male to impregnate them? Spike bull moose can be like unicorns to find, and the bigger LEH bulls are still around to make babies.
The term "immature bull moose" was replaced a few years ago by "spike-fork bull" to clarify the legal requirements under the antler restrictions. It also clarified that these are young adult bulls, not calves. Despite the change in terminology, many still use the old and no longer correct terminology.
It doesn't change the fact that they still require a great deal of care and diligence to ensure the animal you are looking at is legal prior to pulling the trigger.
It doesn't change the fact that they still require a great deal of care and diligence to ensure the animal you are looking at is legal prior to pulling the trigger.
Immies are not calves, guys. I don't know where the wires got crossed.
Out here in BC, many areas only have an open season on immies. Everything else is LEH (lottery) unless you go far enough north.
Oops. Just realized Emerson and TimberPig already said it.
Out here in BC, many areas only have an open season on immies. Everything else is LEH (lottery) unless you go far enough north.
Oops. Just realized Emerson and TimberPig already said it.
'A great deal of time and diligence to ensure the animal is legal before pulling the trigger' is CORRECT and I most certainly follow that procedure but in THIS case,from 25 ' away,with the antlers in plain sight and stationary,I was absolutely convinced this was a ' Spike fork 'and would have shot it....only to walk up and see that flattened out tip with the 1 inch 'point' just off the side that disqualified it as a legal moose...fortionately in this case the hunters had a LEH 'any bull' draw they tagged it as..but how many situations like this result in an abandoned kill?What benefit to the moose herd is there when a hunter goes on and kills ANOTHER moose?( and please don't say it doesn't happen) These are nice THEORIES but they may not work in actual practice...it would have made me sick if I had shot this moose totally convinced it was legal and now faced with the dilemna as to what to do...abandon it,or face a heavy fine and loss of hunting privileges for 5 years by self reporting
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
BC's moose LEH rules are a joke... Tri-Palm and 10-point are bull#### based on genetics rather than maturity. I've seen giant moose with two-point fronts that don't make the tri-palm rule and moose with borederline little protuberances around the pans that may or may not make the rules to qualify as a "point" yet all were completely mature animals.
A smarter approach would be to say "antlered moose" and put out a sustainable number of tags. If you're concerned with a high "immature" harvest implement mandatory inspection and base next year's tag numbers on the results thereof. Too many young bulls being killed? Decrease the number of tags. Too many moose in an area? Implement an antlerless LEH. It's really quite simple.
What is the point in having antler restrictions that potentially result in abandoned kills but allow 'any Bull' GOS for the early season,which ALSO carries the risk of spoiled meat due to the heat?
If the moose herd really needs to be protected*, then SHUT DOWN the early GOS on 'any bull' ,and INCREASE the LEH allocation....I would be very happy to accept one bull among three hunters ,instead of two if it meant more hunting opportunity
* this becomes questionable given the minimum effect hunting has on overall game mortality...even totally shutting down hunting does not apply to predation,road and rail kill, disease and winter-kill ,poaching, loss of habitat ,none of which are selective on ### or antler restrictions...
If the moose herd really needs to be protected*, then SHUT DOWN the early GOS on 'any bull' ,and INCREASE the LEH allocation....I would be very happy to accept one bull among three hunters ,instead of two if it meant more hunting opportunity
* this becomes questionable given the minimum effect hunting has on overall game mortality...even totally shutting down hunting does not apply to predation,road and rail kill, disease and winter-kill ,poaching, loss of habitat ,none of which are selective on ### or antler restrictions...
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